In that response, "they" etc. specifically means the talking heads and their defenders.
Joel Send a noteboard - 27/07/2011 02:44:25 PM
Ignore for a moment the labels involving "right-wing" and "extremist." You use the words "them," "they," and "their" frequently in your response to me. To whom are those third-person plurals being applied? The people who believe in violence like the killer or to those who hold conservative or ultra-conservative views? It is not really clear at times and that's why some are protesting.
It would only be natural if someone were to accuse me of being similar to the SLA of the 1970s to say "hold on, there. I'm not a radical leftist like that." While I think the Murdoch people likely are muddying the waters a bit so they can continue to employ certain labels, there are quite a few decent people with strong conservative beliefs that are going to take exception to being lumped in with those who commit horrific acts of violence. Just let the Fox News and Boltons of the world squirm a bit, but be careful of lumping others into it, as that can only lead to further arguments and sharper divisions in the future.
It would only be natural if someone were to accuse me of being similar to the SLA of the 1970s to say "hold on, there. I'm not a radical leftist like that." While I think the Murdoch people likely are muddying the waters a bit so they can continue to employ certain labels, there are quite a few decent people with strong conservative beliefs that are going to take exception to being lumped in with those who commit horrific acts of violence. Just let the Fox News and Boltons of the world squirm a bit, but be careful of lumping others into it, as that can only lead to further arguments and sharper divisions in the future.
I appreciate that, really. I don't fault Norways Progress Party for Breiviks actions, and since he's a former member of it they can't deny all association with him or shared political views. But of course, they haven't, and there's the rub, isn't it?
When Foxs commentators and Bolton via Fox injected themselves into this horror to angrily deny the undeniable fact that Breivik shares and was motivated by much of their ideology, it immediately raised the question of whom those people are trying to convince, and far more importantly, WHY. Fox and Co. lumped themselves with Breivik, no one did it for them, despite Fox claims to the contrary. Foxs angry and manifestly false claims to share none of Breiviks politics associated the network with him; anyone adopting Foxs ludicrously indignant claims associates themselves with the network just as inevitably. Not my fault, not my responsibility; anyone who (frequently) denies affection for or agreement with Fox is free to cease the latter any time, with my blessing. I have no problem with someone saying, "I'm far right, but not a violent far right extremist like Breivik". I have BIG problems with people who can't or won't say that instead saying, "I'm far right, but not a violent extremist like Breivik--so he's not far right and how dare you libel me that way?!" It implies that extremism is innocuously acceptable and saying otherwise wrong. That's a false proposition but, as we've just been appallingly shown, also a very dangerous one. If Goldwater Republicans don't like where far right extremism leads, the simple solution is not going there.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
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This message last edited by Joel on 27/07/2011 at 02:45:17 PM
This message last edited by Joel on 27/07/2011 at 02:45:17 PM
- Edit 1 by Joel on 27/07/2011 at 02:45:17 PM
Fox Condemns (Calling) Norways Right Wing Terrorist (a Right Wing Terrorist).
- 26/07/2011 02:31:25 AM
1422 Views
Norway shooter = ultra left-wing anarchist *NM*
- 26/07/2011 04:11:58 AM
464 Views
How exactly is anarchism ultra left-wing? *NM*
- 26/07/2011 05:48:15 AM
464 Views
That part actually makes sense; both are anti-authoritarian, anti-establishment and anti-statist.
- 26/07/2011 08:03:19 AM
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Re: Norway shooter = Christian fundamentalist
- 26/07/2011 05:58:54 AM
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I'm not.
- 26/07/2011 08:14:33 AM
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funny how we always keep hearing that Europe left isn't Ameircan left
- 26/07/2011 01:18:57 PM
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No one called him "American right"
- 26/07/2011 01:59:07 PM
530 Views
so why is the left complaining that the American right won't claim him? *NM*
- 26/07/2011 02:06:44 PM
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They don't have to claim him.
- 26/07/2011 02:08:37 PM
511 Views
Or the left could not use the massacre for political advantage and just call him mad man
- 26/07/2011 03:29:20 PM
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I neither care nor am responsible for US media
- 26/07/2011 03:57:08 PM
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this is an article about the US media or hadn't you noticed?
- 26/07/2011 04:27:58 PM
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Yes but I didn't reply to the main article, but to Trzaska being ignorant
- 26/07/2011 04:36:52 PM
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Just to be clear
- 26/07/2011 04:42:04 PM
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just be clear I am not defending the argument that he a leftist
- 26/07/2011 05:30:27 PM
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People seem to forget that there are several different kinds of Left & Right wing views.
- 26/07/2011 06:23:37 PM
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sorry that sounds all nice and reasonable but it doesn't really represent reality
- 26/07/2011 06:41:10 PM
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I get that it is an American TV station making this nonsensical statement,
- 26/07/2011 06:50:36 PM
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See, the thing with an extremist, is that he doesn't have all that much in common with
- 26/07/2011 03:59:05 PM
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A right OR left wing extremist is just that; that's why your mouthpieces are so defensive.
- 26/07/2011 10:40:46 PM
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I am not surprised that the left has wasted no time in local for poltical gain from tragedy
- 26/07/2011 01:13:13 PM
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He murders kids because they're liberal, you spit on their graves: You both belong in an asylum.
- 26/07/2011 07:54:08 AM
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Aaaaaaand you are back on my ignore list. Thanks for confirming my original instincts were right. *NM*
- 26/07/2011 11:18:25 AM
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He says (through his lawyer) ...
- 26/07/2011 01:54:51 PM
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funny how when it is right wing wacko we always see that title applied
- 26/07/2011 02:09:10 PM
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I have no idea what you're talking about.
- 26/07/2011 03:55:13 PM
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Ted Kaczynski was a far left extremist
- 26/07/2011 04:24:21 PM
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Now I see what you mean.
- 26/07/2011 04:43:49 PM
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I would argue that his actions were tied to his beliefs on the specific issue of immigration
- 26/07/2011 06:11:23 PM
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And Glenn Beck shows his usual good taste
- 26/07/2011 09:11:34 AM
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I'm seriously wondering if attacking the victims here will be the tipping point for US fascists.
- 26/07/2011 10:30:33 AM
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why does Fox NEws makes liberals so stupid?
- 26/07/2011 01:04:50 PM
558 Views
+1 - the mainstream media loves to jump to conclusions like in Arizona.....
- 26/07/2011 01:13:12 PM
495 Views
Really? (+edit)
- 26/07/2011 04:53:53 PM
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no the argument started when the media couldn't stop trying to hang him around the neck of the right
- 26/07/2011 06:46:59 PM
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...
- 26/07/2011 06:52:45 PM
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if the term doesn't fit in the US then it makes no sense for US media to use the term here
- 26/07/2011 08:14:40 PM
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This was my point.
- 26/07/2011 08:21:17 PM
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so are you pulling crap out of thin air now?
- 26/07/2011 08:36:08 PM
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You need to take a few deep breaths and take a step back.
- 26/07/2011 11:09:47 PM
412 Views
I may be frustrated but I think it is justified
- 27/07/2011 12:11:09 AM
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I'm sorry if my comment was stupid.
- 27/07/2011 04:38:47 PM
506 Views
I was just taken back a bit because I read it right after complementing you
- 27/07/2011 06:05:38 PM
490 Views
It's the liberals fault they were murdered; I get that that's the American far right argument.
- 26/07/2011 11:09:25 PM
571 Views
BTW, you understand the American right are the only people on the PLANET who dispute he's far right?
- 26/07/2011 11:21:59 PM
461 Views
Joel did you actually read what the Ambassador said?
- 27/07/2011 12:37:39 AM
536 Views
He called it "speculation" that Breivik was part of right-wing extremism.
- 27/07/2011 01:03:11 AM
535 Views
Wow. Let's just make this about us, why don't we?
- 26/07/2011 04:19:06 PM
628 Views
oh please the left is one trying to make about the right
- 26/07/2011 04:36:39 PM
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I'm referring to all Americans (both sides) who are currently fighting this out.
- 26/07/2011 04:44:45 PM
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I agree 100% that this issue shouldn't be used in American politics
- 26/07/2011 06:33:48 PM
556 Views
To Hell with them; even the normally indulgent American public will put them in a rubber room soon.
- 26/07/2011 11:36:13 PM
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You people all need to get a grip
- 26/07/2011 08:33:01 PM
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+1 - I have no idea why Joel started this thread.....he is obsessed with labels. *NM*
- 26/07/2011 08:39:29 PM
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No, you do not agree with what Wibble said. Your +1 makes zero sense. *NM*
- 26/07/2011 11:11:31 PM
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That's what I'm trying to do.
- 26/07/2011 10:05:29 PM
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You are too close to this just now.
- 26/07/2011 10:17:22 PM
502 Views
Probably,but that it happened in perhaps the safest most liberal place on Earth makes it inescapable
- 27/07/2011 12:26:45 AM
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Joel you are so full of shit
- 26/07/2011 10:39:03 PM
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Read Joel's post title again, will you?
- 26/07/2011 11:21:51 PM
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Oh please, Legolas
- 26/07/2011 11:44:26 PM
533 Views
- 26/07/2011 11:44:26 PM
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Quite. And I have every right to point out they're being insensitive jerks. *NM*
- 26/07/2011 11:53:28 PM
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Bullshit
- 27/07/2011 04:20:04 AM
531 Views
For the record, I've always supported guns for self defense (and hunting, and liberty from tyranny).
- 27/07/2011 10:52:02 AM
553 Views
While I have no real interest in getting involved in the troll fest this post has turned in to
- 27/07/2011 11:23:46 AM
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I don't see any troll posts. Just discussions.
- 27/07/2011 02:18:06 PM
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No trolling? And you include the first reply in that?
- 27/07/2011 02:28:51 PM
547 Views
so is the troll the person who makes the point or is the people who refuse to acknowledge it
- 27/07/2011 02:41:31 PM
440 Views
Do you think trz was right to call him an ultra left wing anarchist?
- 27/07/2011 04:15:50 PM
526 Views
I assumed he was referring to me when talked about picking fights with people
- 27/07/2011 05:53:43 PM
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yes Joel did an outstanding job of proving I wasn't being paranoid *NM*
- 27/07/2011 02:35:05 PM
445 Views
extremely offensive...makes them fearful... gives some people... another excuse to try&silence them
- 27/07/2011 04:14:37 PM
582 Views
One of us is.
- 27/07/2011 12:22:44 AM
518 Views
Anyone saying Brevik has nothing in common with the American "Right" is lying to themselves
- 26/07/2011 08:49:29 PM
516 Views
glad you could come along, someone has to represent the ignorant kool-aid drinkers
- 26/07/2011 10:29:52 PM
516 Views
I don't mind them lying to themselves,but promoting the lie incites violent persecution complexes
- 26/07/2011 11:40:48 PM
542 Views
A suggestion
- 27/07/2011 03:30:14 AM
483 Views
Maybe.
- 27/07/2011 04:26:44 AM
602 Views
But there's a problem in all that
- 27/07/2011 12:45:24 PM
667 Views
In that response, "they" etc. specifically means the talking heads and their defenders.
- 27/07/2011 02:44:25 PM
470 Views
Bad Joel, you let this thread go out of hand
- 27/07/2011 09:29:19 PM
494 Views
I blame nested threads.
- 27/07/2011 09:39:04 PM
578 Views
Personally, I blame your need to have the final post in every conversation
- 27/07/2011 10:27:30 PM
524 Views

*NM*
*NM*