Active Users:446 Time:05/03/2026 10:53:18 PM
The questions go deeper Bramhodoulos Send a noteboard - 06/08/2011 08:38:31 PM
I'd illustrate the issue with some sort of genetic landscape plot, where all the little details such as "fitness" and likelihood to survive during current conditions is based on a height in the landscape. Now, imagine that you have peaks in this landscape, where breeding and survival rates are higher than everywhere else. Then it follows that the closer individuals of a species is to the peaks in their particular fitness landscape, the more likely they are to pass their genes onwards. This part of the theory is fairly simple; but the problem is the landscape. It will be constantly changing due to billions of factors entering into survival rates/ general fitness - some factors can be rather large, like availability of nutrients and presence of predators (in polar bear form or viruses, it doesn't matter much) and certain other environmental conditions, but a lot of the things are factors you can't really consider unless you are omniscient (red feathers, hard beak :P)... :P So, in short, it is extremely complex to find the fitness landscape for a species at any given time, and as such, it is all but impossible to design an experiment or observation that could falsify the initial assumption. Suffice to say that there has not yet been any conclusive evidence to say that it doesn't work...

Now, to take a Popperesque view of science in this case might be somewhat flawed... complex biological systems simply have too many factors to consider; Poppers views are more properly applied to science where you can churn the numbers for everything involved instead of doing large scale simulations based on approximations.


Lets grant you have infinite knowledge of genes in all individuals in a population and all there relative and interdependent probability to contribute to the genepool. How would you reconstruct the fitness landscape, given that it is stable?

Or the other way around, what if you would know the landscape perfectly, given that it is stable, how would you evaluate the difference in survival rate of different individuals?

My question is: arn't the two actually the same? Hence, arn't they a tautology?

As for Popper, my problem is not that NS is too complicated to be tested or falsified, my problem is that, even with perfect knowledge it could not be falsified.
If anything NS is too simple to be falsified: it is always true.
Reply to message
Natural selection - 06/08/2011 03:51:26 PM 1236 Views
selection for suitability - 06/08/2011 04:18:51 PM 876 Views
Thanks for your responce - 06/08/2011 04:41:20 PM 996 Views
I can't speak for LadyLorraine and won't try, but here's how I see it: - 06/08/2011 06:49:49 PM 951 Views
Just a question - 06/08/2011 07:18:09 PM 959 Views
Yes it can - 06/08/2011 07:41:59 PM 799 Views
But how? - 06/08/2011 07:52:10 PM 1017 Views
Okay, I think I see what you're saying - 08/08/2011 05:30:43 PM 822 Views
Close - 08/08/2011 05:41:46 PM 1048 Views
Re: Just a question - 06/08/2011 07:49:21 PM 1046 Views
I'm not sure I understand you - 06/08/2011 08:20:44 PM 945 Views
All tautologies are truisms, but not all truisms are tautologies. - 06/08/2011 09:38:12 PM 987 Views
Then it is still a tautology - 06/08/2011 09:45:33 PM 997 Views
You can know it's beneifical to a particular individual, but it's harder to say for populations. - 06/08/2011 10:18:16 PM 1060 Views
Maybe... - 07/08/2011 01:55:54 PM 934 Views
As I understand it - 06/08/2011 06:04:44 PM 878 Views
Better... - 06/08/2011 06:36:38 PM 873 Views
Actually - 06/08/2011 10:13:51 PM 988 Views
Re: Actually - 06/08/2011 10:37:33 PM 1124 Views
Re: Actually - 06/08/2011 11:38:52 PM 1038 Views
Oeh - 07/08/2011 01:54:19 PM 874 Views
Hmmm... there's some truth to that - 06/08/2011 06:36:35 PM 964 Views
Re: Hmmm... there's some truth to that - 06/08/2011 07:08:25 PM 959 Views
Re: Hmmm... there's some truth to that - 07/08/2011 12:46:23 AM 947 Views
The complexity of the problem makes it all but impossible to falsify... - 06/08/2011 08:26:06 PM 971 Views
The questions go deeper - 06/08/2011 08:38:31 PM 1005 Views
Re: The questions go deeper - 06/08/2011 09:10:32 PM 982 Views
I think I know why you don't understand my question. - 06/08/2011 09:38:41 PM 1013 Views
TalkOrigins addresses this at length. - 06/08/2011 11:14:52 PM 1037 Views
Not very much, but interesting none the less - 06/08/2011 11:38:36 PM 1048 Views
Re: Natural selection - 07/08/2011 03:00:30 AM 978 Views
Thanks a lot - 07/08/2011 01:38:39 PM 1110 Views
2 things - 07/08/2011 04:00:35 PM 855 Views
Re: 2 things - 07/08/2011 04:33:00 PM 1082 Views
Re: 2 things - 07/08/2011 05:48:26 PM 907 Views
My best guess - 07/08/2011 06:00:28 PM 965 Views
Re: My best guess - 07/08/2011 06:37:58 PM 881 Views
Re: My best guess - 07/08/2011 06:47:26 PM 1032 Views
Re: My best guess - 07/08/2011 07:02:27 PM 910 Views
Re: My best guess - 07/08/2011 09:09:57 PM 1004 Views

Reply to Message