Active Users:816 Time:06/08/2025 08:19:14 AM
It doesn't, really. The issue gets politicized due to a long memory of "Jim Crow". Tom Send a noteboard - 15/01/2012 06:19:37 PM
To massively generalize, in America today Republicans are mostly conservatives, and conservatives find their base in the rural populations and split the suburbs with Democrats because people in the middle class under pressure will tend to revert to conservative values. Democrats are mostly liberals, and liberals find their base in urban populations and that portion of the suburbs which feels confident enough to be able to pay to support government programs.

The reason I just massively generalized is because in modern voting cycles, voter fraud manifested in the form of ballot-box stuffing is most easily conducted in urban areas by individuals with poor or no ID credentials - the homeless, the indigent, and other people who are transient for one reason or another (e.g., students). These people tend to vote Democratic.

As a result, any attempt to force ID cards is opposed by Democrats, who see in such attempts a manifestation of a historic conservative form of voter fraud, namely, denial of voting rights. Of course, this was historically conducted by white Democrats, but at the time conservatives in the South were Democrats because it was the Republicans who "invaded" under Lincoln. The Jim Crow laws were part and parcel of a wider social scheme to keep blacks disenfranchised, outside of political and socioeconomic power structures and marginalized in society generally.

Democrats like to play down the risk of voter fraud, but groups investigating the 2008 election (and even more so, the 2008 Democratic primary) have uncovered evidence of massive voter fraud in the form of ballot-box stuffing. Whether the evidence is merely the "tip of the iceberg" as Republicans claim or an "exaggeration" as Democrats claim, is an argument that can go on for years.

However, my personal opinion is that ballot-box stuffing is a significant and serious risk, and there are enough "get out the vote" and "voter registration" type organizations out there that can help ensure that everyone gets an ID card. It is easy enough to implement and maintain, and not an unbearable burden. It increases faith in the electoral system and that is a good thing. It decreases the ability of people to delegitimize an election on the grounds that "the dead voted", or that officials cast ballots for people on voter lists who didn't show up.

Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Tom on 15/01/2012 at 06:22:03 PM
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How does requiring photo ID disenfranchise the black/minority community? - 15/01/2012 05:14:16 PM 1928 Views
I certainly don't know. *NM* - 15/01/2012 05:32:42 PM 537 Views
From what I understand ... - 15/01/2012 05:34:39 PM 1039 Views
but you need a photo ID for so many other things - 15/01/2012 05:42:06 PM 918 Views
Well. - 15/01/2012 05:53:04 PM 1054 Views
your last bit is a good point *NM* - 15/01/2012 06:07:17 PM 577 Views
The SCOTUS disagrees with you. - 16/01/2012 03:14:57 AM 891 Views
I didn't even need to show a voter regestration card last time I voted *NM* - 16/01/2012 11:45:23 PM 675 Views
That is kind of pathetic. - 17/01/2012 06:45:19 AM 835 Views
you are not taking my amazing good looks into account - 17/01/2012 11:22:16 AM 759 Views
I cannot speak to that. - 17/01/2012 04:11:53 PM 944 Views
It "disenfranchises" whoever only barely brings him- or herself to vote as it is. - 15/01/2012 05:34:50 PM 923 Views
That really only reinforces the idea to me that this is just people looking to fight about something *NM* - 15/01/2012 05:45:37 PM 514 Views
Did you read your own article? - 15/01/2012 05:48:21 PM 971 Views
but out of that 200,000, how many would go get an ID? - 15/01/2012 06:08:44 PM 935 Views
I think that's an exaggeration, but to play devil's advocate... - 15/01/2012 05:41:10 PM 861 Views
it doesn't strike me as a very big layer to add. *NM* - 15/01/2012 05:43:37 PM 512 Views
Someone presents a poll worker a non-DL photo ID. - 15/01/2012 05:48:50 PM 926 Views
It doesn't, really. The issue gets politicized due to a long memory of "Jim Crow". - 15/01/2012 06:19:37 PM 1006 Views
This is a remarkably calm and reasonable political discussion. What's going on? *NM* - 15/01/2012 08:05:30 PM 535 Views
I'm magical? *NM* - 15/01/2012 08:59:33 PM 606 Views
It is not a black and white issue - 16/01/2012 01:07:14 AM 943 Views
I prefer to think i'm magical. *NM* - 16/01/2012 01:20:49 AM 524 Views
I don't see any cat nearby, thus no magic was used *nods* *NM* - 16/01/2012 01:28:50 AM 551 Views
that's too obvious. - 16/01/2012 02:48:29 AM 922 Views
You did not just compare a cat to a rabbit - 16/01/2012 03:07:49 AM 933 Views
have you ever had a rabbit? - 16/01/2012 03:25:26 AM 980 Views
A cat would never lower itself assumming the form of a fluffy rabbit - 16/01/2012 12:49:26 PM 991 Views
that's just what they want you to think. - 16/01/2012 02:34:48 PM 865 Views
Viscous does not mean Magical - 16/01/2012 02:45:10 PM 1061 Views
Not that I care much either way, but please, answer this: - 15/01/2012 09:26:23 PM 1000 Views
definitely not. However, ID cards are free in South Carolina. - 15/01/2012 09:33:06 PM 1072 Views
You could walk. *NM* - 16/01/2012 06:31:58 AM 523 Views
Oh I could, theoretically. Although this year, my poll is a good 7 miles away - 16/01/2012 08:45:42 AM 1080 Views
7 miles away, isn't that illegal? *NM* - 16/01/2012 05:35:50 PM 527 Views
probably, but not really at the same time. It's my own fault regardless. - 16/01/2012 10:46:06 PM 977 Views
Illegal? My polling location is > 7 miles from my permanent residence. - 17/01/2012 12:19:21 AM 929 Views
I really have no idea what the rules are. *NM* - 17/01/2012 03:02:04 PM 528 Views
Every state has its own rules - 17/01/2012 03:54:43 PM 963 Views
No, and there's is no place in the US that is the case - 16/01/2012 12:11:36 AM 981 Views
Short answer: Yes. (Let me know if you want the long answer.) *NM* - 16/01/2012 07:52:36 PM 631 Views
that would be interesting. *NM* - 16/01/2012 08:45:24 PM 541 Views
I don't see how it does - 15/01/2012 10:22:29 PM 997 Views
Re: I don't see how it does - 15/01/2012 10:57:20 PM 931 Views
I believe most states also offer a non-drivers ID issued by the DMV - 16/01/2012 12:12:09 AM 885 Views
Also passports work too in most places. *NM* - 16/01/2012 06:59:51 PM 558 Views
those are far far from economical or practical compared to state IDs *NM* - 16/01/2012 07:12:30 PM 435 Views
Non-driver IDs, as said above - 16/01/2012 11:55:55 PM 961 Views
they don't cost in all states. They are free in SC *NM* - 17/01/2012 12:00:14 AM 547 Views
It is a catch 22 situation, the free id is not a perfect solution - 16/01/2012 12:53:11 AM 1057 Views
That problem is significant, but far bigger than voting. - 16/01/2012 02:53:13 AM 989 Views
Also you can't claim voter fraud is a big problem - 16/01/2012 12:57:18 AM 954 Views
can you prove that voter fraud is not a problem? - 16/01/2012 02:04:52 AM 883 Views
In 5 years of investigation, 120 people were charged national with voter fraud, 86 were convincted - 16/01/2012 02:33:07 AM 1110 Views
That's smoke and mirrors - 16/01/2012 01:51:34 PM 1010 Views
It seems you didn't read the article, or understand its point - 16/01/2012 02:39:39 PM 944 Views
I suspect I know a good deal more of this subject than the author of your 5-year old article - 16/01/2012 05:37:54 PM 944 Views
Question for you - 16/01/2012 06:01:09 PM 989 Views
I'd prefer photo-ID only but I don't see too great a need. - 16/01/2012 06:37:13 PM 1123 Views
I tend to agree - 16/01/2012 06:50:43 PM 882 Views
I'd definitely encourage absentee voting - 16/01/2012 07:14:02 PM 975 Views
I am required to produce a state ID to vote. - 16/01/2012 02:21:27 PM 994 Views
Re: How does requiring photo ID disenfranchise the black/minority community? - 16/01/2012 02:42:28 PM 979 Views
Keep wearing that tinfoil hat. *NM* - 16/01/2012 03:09:56 PM 547 Views
I'm not reading the article but... - 17/01/2012 09:48:27 AM 918 Views
maybe there's no excuse in your area - 17/01/2012 03:05:53 PM 863 Views
I think when you get to such extreme examples, the point often becomes moot. - 18/01/2012 07:26:10 PM 850 Views
that pretty much sums up my thoughts no it - 18/01/2012 08:57:41 PM 880 Views
Re: I think when you get to such extreme examples, the point often becomes moot. - 21/01/2012 02:44:56 AM 1114 Views
Well, that's kind of what I meant. - 21/01/2012 02:15:30 PM 1016 Views
Re: Well, that's kind of what I meant. - 28/01/2012 03:48:19 PM 1203 Views
Re: maybe there's no excuse in your area - 21/01/2012 02:39:12 AM 961 Views
What? I'm the only one who cares? - 18/01/2012 02:14:28 AM 1061 Views
Yes, just you, the rest of us have been discussing baseball this entire time *NM* - 18/01/2012 02:41:25 AM 546 Views
I'm the only one who cares with fervor in a non nuanced way ok? *NM* - 18/01/2012 03:07:07 AM 535 Views
imo, fervor has no place in political discussion - 18/01/2012 02:35:56 PM 922 Views
What? - 18/01/2012 03:57:10 PM 838 Views
What about those who don't have an id and have been voting fine before? - 18/01/2012 06:06:19 PM 1070 Views
the problem with that last point is... - 18/01/2012 09:05:43 PM 912 Views
Yes. - 18/01/2012 09:32:25 PM 1080 Views
Cry me a river. Honestly. - 20/01/2012 05:28:05 AM 832 Views
What's your real question? - 18/01/2012 05:07:30 PM 882 Views
Question mark notwithstanding, there was no question. - 18/01/2012 06:16:46 PM 978 Views
Be outraged. Be passionate. Be surprised. - 19/01/2012 05:42:37 PM 1121 Views

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