Active Users:370 Time:26/04/2024 05:49:52 PM
Re: To a large extent my issue is with means rather than ends. Joel Send a noteboard - 04/03/2012 01:06:26 AM
they can be as outraged by SO/PIPA as the Tea Party was by Robamacare—with no more chance of preventing the source of that outrage.


We'll see. The industry has not been very lucky in getting the laws it wanted passed in full. Each time, the laws didn't give them nearly all what they wanted, and some have in fact blocked the way they intended to go and forced them to take other ways.

I'll be a bit surprised if they manage to get the laws passed before the presidential election, unless they come next with a law with no teeth that would get the support of even Silicon Valley and let the public indifferent. This is what a lot of commentators in and out of the US are saying. They made a huge strategic mistake as better devised, more responsible laws had a good chance to pass at this juncture (a lot of people were discussing the laws as a done deal and were surprised when opposition finally stirred in Congress, and when Obama said as they stood they were not acceptable to the WH), before the campaign and, as it's been obvious through the whole thing, with several congressmen not too aware of the details and various issues involved, who did listen more and more to the opponents. The next time, the debates are likely to be more informed, and more heated/political. It will be more difficult until the election (not much to gain for the Republicans to let Obama "pay his debts" before the election to an industry that had put its weight behind him the last time around, and for after it's a bit too early to speculate.

It is called "incrementalism," and is how industry lobbies work. The best example I have heard was a former TX legislator talking about a trucking lobby bill to extend their trailers legal length by 25 feet. They lost a lopsided vote on it, so they came back with a bill extending the limit 5 feet, which passed. They quietly passed duplicate bills in each of the next four legislative sessions, and had their 25 foot extension by the end of the decade.

Anyone expecting Obama to play white knight on SO/PIPA has paid too much attention to his rhetoric and too little to the bills he signed. If push comes to shove expect Obama to enact SO/PIPA with a big speech explaining how they actually liberate internet users and prevent media industry abuses. Even if that were not true, sending him a bill would not let him pay his debts, but neutralize the issue for the campaign (not that it will be a campaign issue in any case; rightly or not, most voters consider online civil liberties a much lower priority than jobs, the federal debt, health care, national security, REAL civil liberties and what color to paint Congress.)

It might be more politically expedient to wait until January, but the difference is probably marginal and I expect round two this summer, if not after Easter. In terms of Obamas dubious veto promise, Republicans would be better off if he paid his debt now so a predominantly liberal demographic believes the issue settled and has less reason to show up on election day.

Best settle in for the long haul; I guarantee Big Media has, and is counting on the inability to sustain opposition while they bide their time and pay their Congressmen.

So instead of simply providing knowledge of how to commit crimes, that can be downloaded and either used or just innocuously placed on a bookshelf

They don't provide knowledge, they provide information/data that in itself isn't illegal to share or to possess in any way, but that is totally useless to possess for any other reason than intending to download/upload content which in most cases is illegal content. It's not like possessing a grenade as you brought up below, it's possessing the knowledge to acquire one if you wish. They got Pirate Bay over that: the site had no other reason to exist but to help people steal content, and generate profits from doing that. It was a matter of defining those actions as illegal too, which I understand Sweden has done, but until it did PB was out of reach, which explains why it's gone unhindered for years (the same would have happened if the site was Canadian. It would still happen, incidentally, though culturally speaking such a site would be surprising here in the first place - we don't have much of an anarchist bone).

As you say, "it's possessing the knowledge to acquire" data illegally, and that possession is enabled by pirate sites providing the knowledge. It ought to be trivial to make providing the knowledge illegal, but unfortunately it is not, because of people who think teaching people how to commit crimes or providing the means of doing so is protected speech. "I did not do anything wrong; all I did was post people bank account numbers online with instruction on how to empty them and/or a convenient link that does it automatically." Think that would hold up in court...?

The only justice is many of the people insisting that is protected speech have their identity and/or life savings stolen by those they defend, because the last game/movie/song they illegally downloaded had spyware that carefully logged and transmitted the data every time they paid a bill or checked their balance online.

In the case of Megaupload, I bet it wasn't all that easy to make a solid case against them under the existing laws, further complicated by the fact the US authorities had to convince foreign authorities to move against these people, and extradite them. It's a very loaded issue in most nations whenever someone is to be extradited to the US (your justice system doesn't have the most stellar image - in the public's eyes, at least), the public wants very solid evidence of the crimes.

I am sure it was not easy to make a case UNDER EXISTING LAW against Megaupload, even though they were clearly profiting from illegally providing other peoples intellectual property. That it was happening in another country surely complicated matters as well. Those reasons are why the industry is pushing for new laws to facilitate protecting their rights against indisputable infringement. That it is a matter of one persons right to swing their arm ending where it intersects anothers nose is what makes this issue so contentious, but it is as counterproductive and untrue for netizens to insist media executives HAVE no rights as it is for the latter to insist the same about the former. As long as the issue is decided on those terms, I assure you the money will win in the end.

As far as the international perception of American justice, let us not go crazy here. Yes, nations WITHOUT CAPITAL PUNISHMENT are notoriously unwilling to extradite people to the US when they might face the death penalty, but that is obviously a non-issue for data piracy. The kind of people who would refuse to extradite a data pirate because they consider the US legal system unjust are not making that decision, because they consider their OWN (and every) legal system unjust. America has real flaws requiring correction, but I do not want to get off on a rant about people who think China and Iran more credible on civil liberties and non-aggression. It is a self correcting problem; America is running out of cash and starting to remember it had to be dragged kicking and screaming into winning those two world wars. One of these days the rest of the world will turn to its much maligned savior to rescue it from a dictator and be told it is not our problem.

The tricky part would probably be targeting downloaders forced to simultaneously act as uploaders.

Forced? Nobody forces anyone. It's how the technology works, people choose to use it or not, no one's forced. Yes it was clever of those who conceived it to make anyone who downloads an uploader, that's the whole idea behind it: the authorities can no longer focus on anyone in particular, the phenomenon involves millions of private users, and no corporation owning a site, no server to shut down, no assets to seize but private ones, no big profits to seize either. Everybody who accepts to use the technology accepts to commit the crimes of obtaining and distributing illegal content (the fact there's no profit involved only plays in the sentence, in most laws).

Which last is probably as it should be; no harm, no foul and all that.

No one is forced to USE the technology, but anyone using it IS forced to upload data as they download it. Yes, it was very clever for criminals to find a way to commit crimes that makes the commission far more difficult to detect while simultaneously making so many other culpable that prosecuting all of them is impractical. However, if a thief figured out a way to get every bank customer to steal one dollar, often witout even knowing it, and then bring it to him it would still be very clear who ultimately bore ALL responsibility. It would be harder to detect and thus prove, but all the more vital for that, because devious thieves are far more harmful than stupid ones.

However, one would think millions of people simultaneously accessing each others computers for that kind of high volume high user transfer would stick out like a sore thumb.

It's not so "high volume". Let's say a file for a movie is around 300 MB. Instead of getting the whole of it from a single source, you get very small packets of data from a myriad of sources, and it's also very small packets of data others get from you. That's another "trick" in the design of the technology: no one actually exchanges the whole thing to anyone else. You might have provided 0,2% of the file to one user, and 1% to another and so on. Under some laws that is not enough to be illegal (not the case under US NET laws or ours, as far as I know, but several nations are quite behind in updating their laws to digital content).

It may not be so high volume for individual files, but under the format you describe it would not take long to compile a list of "usual suspects," thereby providing probable cause to surveill them and obtain proof of crimes. Basically, the same way US cops use inexplicably high electricity usage as justification to take infrared photos of people growing pot in their homes, then bust them.

If that is as much the norm as you say it probably accounts for 90% of online bandwidth at any given time.

I wouldn't risk putting a number on it, but yeah, it's estimated/speculated to be a rather high percentage of total bandwidth usage by particulars nowadays (it's one of those highly debated numbers between independant studies and the content providers'. And there you've reached on your own one of my earlier points: for a lot of people the need for massively increased bandwidth and (far more damningly) for "unlimited monthly usage" or good deals for big bandwidth usage, all for an affordable price was mostly due to piracy habits, and the ISP were all too willing to invest to meet those new demands, and customers all too willing to pay more to get this, a service even better than what corporate/pro users were paying a fortune for a few years ago.

That's why some content providers are lobbying (and in only a few nations apparently, have won their case) for an end to "unlimited" types of deals from ISP in the first place or for regulations on the prices for a service to private users offering a big bandwidth deal, and/or are lobbying (with even less success so far) governements to introduce measures where some of the profits from the ISP (in other words, some of the money the people pay for high speed internet and big data deals, either what they're paying now, or a new special tax over it) would return to the content producers in a way very similar to how radio broadcasters do, and would compensate them for losses to piracy. Here the government said no to new regulation, the content producers (incl. yours) turned to the courts to settle if the regulations applying to broadcasters covered ISP as well, up to the Supreme Court that said "no" last week.

This isn't an avenue without merits to mitigate the effects of piracy on content producers (ie: a tax that would rise according to your bandwidth usage) and could lead to agreements much in the same vein as those in place for radio worlwide - though if my own country is any indication, 70% of users are in favour but the goverment is totally opposed to the idea (for reasons I tend to agree with) - my problems with the whole concept are that the sources of heavy-bandwidth perfectly legal content are multiplying (and once the MPAA and other producers of video content catch up, it will even more - and I frankly wouldn't want to hinder that, on the contrary) and people who are sticking to those would be penalized as if they were pirating (for radio, you get to hear the ads only if you listen to the music...), and as a professional working a lot from home (and often on MPAA content, as it happens), my bandwidth usage is massive if perfectly legitimate (though that would probably be deductible, like my ISP bills, but that's not the same as being exempted from paying a punitive tax like this), not to mention that I watch more and more TV via the internet, and shop my music mostly with downloads too. So I'd definitely pay a lot, and in my case the most absurd is that I would pay that tax when most of the upload/download I do every month (uo to 90% maybe) is when I provide a service to content producers!.

The meteoric growth of legal commerical bandwidth use makes it unlikely there will be any kind of laws against providing unlimited usage. A minimal tax might develop, but as web access becomes more ubiquitous I would expect resistance to that in the US, because of the difference between how the US views usage of "public" airwaves relative to how other countries view it. Cable and ISPs may be changing that, but in the old days access FROM public airwaves was free to the public who owned them; the only fees were on broadcasters publicly licensed access TO public airwaves. Both "public service announcements" and many public affirs programs are a legacy of licensing requirements that broadcasters operate "in the public interest."

Unlimited access is not the real problem, but specific uses of it. It is VITAL to maintain that focus, and the push for SO/PIPA has sacrificed much of it: The goal must be to reduce or eliminate piracy rather than everything that CAN be used for piracy, but is often used for myriad legitimate purposes also. We did not shut down chat rooms when we discovered pedophiles trolling them for victims, or declare everyone who has ever been in a chat room pedophiles, because those would have been unnecessarily extreme overreactions. We do, however, monitor online chat far more aggressively now, and prosecute people we DO catch using it for sexual predation. We can make it illegal to run someone over with a car, and severely prosecute those who do, without banning cars or branding all drivers criminals.

There is most definitely "communication between users," because that is how the snippets of files are sent back and forth among hordes of users simultaneously.

I was strictly speaking of personal/social interaction (of which there is none involved), not of computers exchanging data.

Now that IS semantics. What difference does it make whether I state this sentence orally, on paper or electronically? You have a physical record of it in the second two cases; that is about it. Whether people communicate online or otherwise, they still communicate; peer-to-peer may be such a passive form many are not even aware of it, but it is still happening. Personally, I suspect telling people downloading software illegally that they are simultaneously broadcasting data from their computer to dozens or even hundreds of other people downloading software would NOT be a selling point. Widespread knowledge of that would probably go a long way toward diminishing peer-to-peer piracy by itself, because of the potential for abuse. Without knowing computers VERY well, when downloading software from a third party automatically means simultaneously uploading data to many other third parties, how does one know WHAT the Hell they are broadcasting? My own experience has been that vulnerability is about as much a deterrent to piracy as ethics and law are. Online piracy is the ultimate example of "let the non-buyer beware...."

The thinking is not yet obsolete just because most downloaders make themselves uploaders in the process. That merely means they ceased to be trivial annoyances and graduated to serious threats (probably why Big Media has begun pursuing them far more aggressively.)

Which is fairly futile, as many countries have fairly restrictive laws (like ours: you can't bring someone to court over this unless you have evidence they've made a profit over it, and I'd venture to guess a negligible, next to inexistent percentage of private users who get and share illegal content ever burn the movies or music on media to sell it to others)

Which is probably as it should be, really. I have a hard time believing large scale peer-to-peer piracy will be a long term issue, if only because it significantly increases the always significant vulnerability inherent in piracy. People who suffer losses due to USING peer-to-peer software have no more recourse than people whose computers are infected with viruses when they illegally download data from a pirate site. Again, calling the cops when ones dope is stolen is simply not an option.

In terms of enforcing anti-piracy laws, the trick seems to lie in detection, but the most egregious offenders are both the most detectable and the only significant part of the problem. Someone who downloads a single mp3 file every three or four months will be hard to catch, because they have very little illegally available data for others to obtain through a peer-to-peer connection, and in many cases do not use peer-to-peer often, legally or otherwise. However, people like that cost Big Media and its artists very little money, so if small fish slip through the net, so what? On the other hand, someone illegally downloading dozens or hundreds of games/songs/films a week, and simultaneously uploading pieces of them to thousand or tens of thousands of others will light up like a Christmas tree to any online surveillance. When busted, reading the charges against them will probably take longer than the rest of the trial. It is unsurprising that Big Media wants people like that to do hard time since putting a lein on their dorm rooms is impossible, and it is probably also justified.

If the mechanism of piracy no longer permits downloaders to remain no more than that and below legal radar, that sounds like a problem between pirate users and pirate providers. If the former can no longer operate without becoming, and thereby facing the legal liabilities of, the latter, their complaint is with those who created that requirement, not Big Media.

You make this way too complicated for nothing. The issue here is that in the first phase of digital piracy, there were tons of downloaders of content and much less providers of content, and there were a few servers in the middle, making profits (or not). You shut down the servers (which eventually the authorities did) and theorically you dealt a major blow to piracy. It did, it just didn't last very long because rogue developpers almost immediately replied to the victory against Napster with peer-to-peer concepts, and ISP met the rising demand for high speed internet, and soon piracy was stronger and far more widespread than in the days of Napster. Studies try to show it no longer affects the music industry as it did before i-tune, Amazon and co. introduced legal digital download, but it now affects video massively.

Nowadays, everyone involved in peer-to-peer is also a provider or distributor or both, doing away with the necessity to have sites like Napster, and making it virtually impossible for the content providers to go legally after enough of those peer-to-peer users to make a difference.

Maybe that is a good thing, for the above stated reasons. In that kind of peer-to-peer format, the "occasional pirate" is unlikely to face any consequences except malware from dubious characters they should have avoided, but the "habitual pirate" has become very much part of the problem whether or not they realize it. They are broadcasting illegally obtained data over the internet just as surely as a Megaupload or Napster was, and it remains ludicrous to think all or even most people who can pay for legal copies of that content will turn down the opporunity for illegally obtain it for free. There is a reason everyone from banks to convenience stores keeps their money in safes, and cops work full time.

Now that you know a bit more how it works, you've not yet asked the real question: why, if peer-to-peer is by far the most widespread and popular form of piracy, the one that causes the most financial losses, are the content producers so bent on introducing laws like SOPA\PIPA that are aimed not at peer-to-peer piracy, but at sites like Megaupload, and sites that offer streamable/downloadable conten?. And that very question has surfaced in many articles on the bills and the issues. Most agree their effect on the piracy phenomenon will be very limited, because they won't reach peer-to-peer piracy, and they won't block IP worlwide but just DNS, so it shouldn't take long before people get informed on how to still reach those sites using their IP addresses, at least those that are out of reach of US justice (ie: in the countries where the authorities won't do anything, not arrest the people, not close their servers, not extradite anyone to the US). So the question is often asked: are the content providers just badly advised/idiots? Or are they just showing their teeth in the hope of frightening a percentage of those who pirate their content, in the hope of diminishing a bit the phenomenon, knowing eradication is not a realistic goal? They really don't need laws with as wide a scope as SOPA/PIPA to do that, and that again worries a lot of people that, for instance, they may want those laws so wide in scope in order to target services in wich piracy is a not major phenomenon, but that are emerging more and more as distribution hubs of "internet entertainment", which competes with their products, in order to hinder or slow down their development.

Personally, I have a fairly low opinion of the business ethics of the industry, but I'm not big on conspiracy theories. I rather lean toward the theory they're perfectly aware they won't get any laws that can deal efficiently against peer-to-peer (not in the US certainly, and not in many nations), and that they've decided to "clean up" the web of the remaining visible outlets, which in some measure they can already do (Megaupload is just evidence of this), but with laws that would let them pretty much prevent the rise of any new big sites and they allow them to act much faster, without the burden of very solid inquiries before they can convince a judge. And I think it was totally intentional on their part that the law could be a damocles sword over the head of corporations from Silicon Valley (eg: Google), in part to limit their future development in areas that could be detrimental to them, in part as leverage to pressure them to take more and more restrictive measures at their own cost.

That's why I would only support measures that would be very narrow in scope, and would very well define the kind of sites/services they can touch, rather than seek to exclude this and that.

Do not sell the conspiracy theory short. Increasingly integrated multimedia has been converging on a single online source for at least a decade (arguably longer; the Big Bopper coined the phrase "music video" while still a DJ, even before his own musical career began in the late '50s.) Big Media accurately perceives both a threat and an opportunity in that. If the internet has enabled a whole new realm of independent individual content providers, it is much easier to control the profits and content of a single integrated medium than maintain a grip over distinct print, radio, film and network plus cable television media. The latest round in the ongoing online piracy battle is as much about free access to legitimate data as about free distribution of it.

The (so far...) successful opposition to SO/PIPA owes a large debt to an unexpected source: Constituents who have complained for years about "media bias" alarm congressional Republicans far more than Obama does. Those constituent concerns are quite valid reasons to oppose SO/PIPAs overly broad/intrusive aspects. Make no mistake though, while SO/PIPA are promoted as protecting Big Medias livelihood, and do so, the SUM of the bills also involves expanding and exploiting that livelihood. That is one more reason the argument is far from over and the public must protect its own interests by stating its own expectations of the inevitable new legislation. Ceding the framing of all new bills to Big Media (as insisting on NO bill does) is tantamount to surrendering the whole issue.

So the best bet is to state specifically what measures we DO support (while US Congressmen have little obligation to act on the suggestions of Canadians, they have no reason to utterly ignore valid informed ones either.) If 90% of what Congress hears is "we want x and y but not z," they can do the electoral math well enough to know that is what they better enact. If all they hear is a bunch of internet junkies insisting "the First Amendment gives us the right to do whatever we please, fascist111" they will ignore it as they always do that kind of alarmist fringe rant, and would even without hundreds of millions in Big Media money encouraging it.

In theory, going after the advertisers is a good idea, but in practice it's not that useful. They seek to go against sites/corporations that are out of reach of the FBI (ie: abroad), yet the law only applies (and can only apply) to American advertisers on such sites. Most of the effect of that law will probably apply at its introduction, in frightening the US advertisers still making business with such foreign sites. That means no more ads on those sites targeted at the US market, basically (most internet advertising is geolocated). It sounds far more like laws aimed at changing the culture of those American smaller advertisers (and often of the less savoury type, porn, scams and whatnot) who shamelessly advertise on pirate sites that laws that will financially affect sites abroad. If those sites manage to survive a DNS ban (and the bigger sites very likely would), they will keep their foreign advertisers.

Until/unless foreign media industries and/or the State Dept. succeed in getting the industrialized world to pass its own versions of SO/PIPA to provide for international enforcement and extradition, as they did with the DMCA. That will, of course, be the next step, after which pirate sites will be reduced to relying on whatever ad revenue they can get from advertisers in the country who built the REAL Great Firewall. Which ain't much.

Generally though, yes, including advertisers would scare them away from sponsoring pirate sites, where the laws applied, and would have a great effect even if that were only America (which it would not be for long.) For all the doom and gloom about Americas imminent demise, about 25% of all money on the planet still resides in the US; cutting off that revenue stream would have a devastating impact on anyone. Adding Western Europe and Japan would make things very difficult for pirate sites, particularly since their are about as many online advertisers in Botswana as there are people illegally downloading Mass Effect to their laptops.

Regarding true peer to peer file-sharing of copyrighted materials, I cannot believe that is the bulk of piracy any more than when my dad was taping thirty year old 78s in his garage for himself and friends doing the same.

You just have the wrong terminology Joel. Peer-to-peer is what I described: a structure of widescale piracy where the content to exchange is hosted on private peers (personal computers) not on servers, with a peer-to-peer software connecting them. There's no such thing as "true" peer-to-peer as you keep bringing up, where a single person take files from his collection and make a CD for a friend, or send him privately the files by a digital mean. You can't even send a file with a peer-to-peer software, not connect to a specific computer like your friend's, for instance. That's not a way to exchange data with a person you know, it's to share data anonymously with several people you don't know. Semantically speaking, copying files for a friend using computerscould be called peer-to-peer, but you're just confusing matters by using the expression that way, when it's not what is meant by peer-to-peer in the context of internet piracy.

When it's said peer-to-peer is the most widespread form of piracy, it refers strictly to the people using peer-to-peer softwares. It's never about one peer and a second peer who knows the first at the receiving end.

In that case, I would say it is more that the people using it have "the wrong terminology," because that is not "peer to peer," but peer to peerS. Referring to it that way would be more accurate, but diminish the perception online piracy is just a couple college kids illegally sharing data with a couple others. As it should.

It may be technically easy to send twenty albums to a dozen friends while receiving as many from them, but how much bandwidth does it take? That is, how long does it take, and how long do RAFO, Facebook, etc. take to load while doing it? Particularly when there are five other people on ones router doing the same thing.

It seems really quite fast. It's dependant on your connection of course, and how much bandwidth you're already using for something else. You can set maximum download/upload rates, so it doesn't slow you down too much in what else you're doing. Then it depends on how popular the file you want to get is. The more popular, the more users you can download small packets from concurrently, the less standby time you get and the faster you get the file. So if you're looking for a Blue-Ray rip of Harry Potter 7 part 2, it will go extremely fast (something in the order of an hour or two, I believe) but if you're looking for an obscure Japanese movie from the 60, it might take a few days as you have to rely on a small group of users, who aren't constantly connected.

In terms of monitoring, therefore detection and therefore prosecution, that is ideal, because the most popular piracy is also the most easily detected and harmful. A lot of half century old media is no longer copyrighted anyway, because renewing copyrights cost money people are unwilling to spend protecting things they only sell a dozen copies of per year. The main thing provoking Big Media is that piracy at or even before initial release cuts into the most lucrative phase of sales, when demand is highest and supply is (or was) lowest.

How much does many people downloading snippets of data from a user downloading whole files from others slow the middlemans other operations though? A few hours may not be long to download a feature film, but how much does it eat into other performance if it means not only getting information from but suppplying it TO hundreds of other computers? Maybe it is negligible, but it should not be difficult to track and curtail; the limitation is more legal than technical, yes?

Alternatives to DNS and other uncharted territory aimed at reducing control by the authorities are inevitable whatever happens with piracy.

Yes, just like not touching Napster wouldn't have held back the development of the peer-to-peer concept forever, but shutting it down precipitated its arrival, and not only that, but a system specifically designed to address Napster's weaknesses and exploiting the absence of laws. The net result of the RIAA's victory over Napster is to have increased the piracy phenomenon, and to make it more elusive. Not much of a victory, more like a big failure. Most of all, it had failed to convince people piracy was a crime, or at least convince them they shouldn't commit it. They only progress on the piracy front came when lower prices, legal downloads gained popularity, and their biggest boost came when Apple introduced the i-tune store.

It's hard to see how SOPA/PIPA could result in generating even more piracy at this point, I would guess the phenomenon is as widespread as it's likely to get, the danger now is making it even more elusive and out of control than it is, and that other forms of criminality, dangerous ones, could benefit from that as well.

Governments intend to be the ones creating alternative to IP/DNS down the line (it's pretty much reached its limit), but with similar control to what they have over the current structure. They don't want rogue alternatives to start appearing first, or to motivate the "anarchist developpers" to work on that (not that they don't already). Pretty much everyone agrees the fact they have not at this point is due to the fact so far the western world's authorities have threaded extremely carefully with their legal measures of control over the internet.

Ultimately, it is not even control over the internet itself so much as control over speech and communication in general. A theater group staging The Kings Speech and charging admission would probably find itself in the same legal jeopardy as people broadcasting it online. Much online behavior affirmed as "free speech" is not really free speech, but a form of unprotected and criminal speech either impossible or very difficult in other environments. The difference is if I got sued for selling Chewie/Jar-Jar slashfic at my local comic shop no netizens would leap to my defence (for many reasons.... )

The anarchist developers will not take the lead in internet architecture regardless, because, even online, architecture is still very much a brick and mortar phenomenon. Without a physical interface and physical network through which to send and receive data any and all innovative new software and techniquess are useless. Even WiFi does not ultimately change that; we still need modems, routers and servers. Even if we did not, we would still be using public airwaves, and if those are publicly owned, the publics government regulates them closely. Thanks to the unity of electricity and magnetism, every electrical device sold in the US requires FCC approval, if only to ensure it does not interfere with OTHER devices.

Software pirates have about as much chance against that as pirate radio did; calling it fascism does not MAKE it fascism, and to the extent the general public reacts at all it is with mild annoyance—and not at GOVERNMENT. The blowback against SO/PIPA is because they would affect a lot of people who are not pirates; piracy itself is a large but NOT widespread problem to which the general public is unsympathetic. Opponents got a natural but unexpected (by Republicans) boost from the same far right fringe that considers media itself a tyrannical liberal conspiracy, but a revision restricting new laws to what most of those people consider college punks who think themselves above the law that groundswell will collapse. Rush Limbaugh may enjoy bashing Obama, but that reason alone will convince him to support a bill Obama rhetorically opposes. The realization it only restricts access to the same liberal media propaganda he loathes is just icing on the cake, but we can hardly expect Pat Robertson to stand up for the right to free high quality hentai.

I return to the same thing again and again: even seriously diminishing piracy requires public support, for enough people to agree to change their behaviors and buy the content again, which (now that you understand how peer-to-peer works) would mean that the offer on the "pirate market" would be quite reduced if enough people stopped or even seriously reduced their pirating, and one thing that makes it all so appealing is that you can find nearly anything right now, and that with so many users, it's fast and efficient (not much longer than it would take to download the content legally).

It would be terribly difficult, and ruinous, for the industry to go after enough users to make a real difference (not to mention those users would mostly be Americans, and a PR disaster that backfires and make people less and less sympathetic to the industry is a very real risk, not to mention that going after users would forcibly mean several mistakes of identification... dad for kids, grandma for grandson, mother for babysitter and so on), so that leaves pretty much the avenue of education, then that of changing the public image of greed and the culture of the RIAA/MPAA (not about to happen, the whole industry runs on selling "dreams", with the people involved living in princely fashion) and that of providing better services/products and better prices (it remains their most viable option). The RIAA has worked on the three so far, even for its image it did make people more conscious to the damage done to artists (though people remain thoroughly unconvinced regarding the bigger names, there's quite a bit of Robin Hood complex at play). The MPAA is still stalling, and this affects also the RIAA's efforts, no doubt there.

It leaves the avenue of going after providers also, to whom very little of the public is sympathetic. That peer-to-peers software makes every user a provider makes it much easier, because now we are no longer dealing with a single person grabbing a free movie or game off the net, but multiple people broadcasting it to EVERYONE. What seemed a clever way to avoid detection and liability is in fact just an unfortunate way to encourage more aggressive detection that eliminates downloaders ability to claim they are not hurting anyone.

It may not be plausible to say publishers lost revenue because Joe Blow would have bought each of the albums he illegally downloaded had he been unable to get them for free, but it is quite plausible to say at least one of the dozens or hundreds of people to whom he distributed it in the process would have. The dual nature of peer-to-peers software just makes people illegally downloading copyrighted material every bit as culpable as all the (other) people distributing it. Technically, it may have been a great benefit; LEGALLY, it could prove Armageddon, because the only people sympathetic to people illegally providing copyrighted data are the people receiving it. There are clearly a lot of them in the US, but there are 310 million Americans: Piracy is still a very unpopular act with a large effect because if even 1% of the population is doing it that is 3 million people, many of whom are engaged in a LOT of piracy.

Cases like al-Awlaki provide incentive, demonstrate need and ensure public support even when such government actions are discovered. To borrow a line from Rumsfeld, we do not know what we do not know; we are ignorant of even the LEVEL of our ignorance. Ill conceived and wrongly motivated, but active and concerted, efforts to escape supposed government tyranny only encourage more covert instances of it.

What Americans were willing to give up in the name of national security and potentially saving lives, in that timeframe, is one thing. What they would be willing to give up in the name of Hollywood's profits is quite another I would say. In my experience on international forums, it's almost always the Americans who are the fastest to react, the most virulent when they do and also the most cynical and desillusioned when it comes to accusing their own entertainment industry of greed, or ripping people off, or deceiving its customers, and so on (to the point that despite evidence that this or that writer is showing many signs he wants to be done with a series and move on, they'll still be the ones arguing the loudest he's just stretching it to milk the fans of more money. Jordan put a (childish) new chapter into the YA edition of his first WOT book, that made it easier for younger people to connect with the characters and get into the story, it's his American fans who went first (and the loudest) to the barricades yelling that the publisher was doing this not to reach a new audience, but to try to sell the book to the adult readers again, hooking them with "exclusive content" (and the facts, such as the lack of advertising of that content to the adult fanbase be damned). I'm not criticizing the attitude, merely pointing out that convincing the Americans themselves the industry isn't overcharging for its products, and not trying to scam people with all these new special editions, half season DVD and what not, might not be an easy job. Just look who complains the loudest that 3D is just a gimmick to raise the price of theater tickets...

"In that time frame"? It was five months ago; Americans are willing to give up about as much now as they were then. Americans are a funny lot, and one example of that is that we will bitch about people overcharging for their product in one breath and defend to the death their right to do so in the next. No one who dislikes the price of the product is obligated to pay it—they are just not entitled to receive the product unless they do.

3D is not just a gimmick to raise the price of theater tickets, it is a gimmick to put butts in the seats by offering something most people cannot (yet) get in front of monitors. Just like all the luxury seating (and good luck with that, Hollywood; I have yet to find a public environment with hundreds of people I found as comfortable as lying in bed naked and belching. ) It is the same reason they started offering "bonus scenes" on DVDs. For that matter, compare album covers before 1960 to those after home recording devices became really widespread, let alone covers from the '70s when cassettes arrived. Media publishers do not hire people to make that stuff for the sake of high art, it is an attempt to make impossible to duplicate anti-counterfeiting holograms into a marketing tool. Sure, you can download Dark Side, but no iconic prism for you (though you are welcome and encouraged to buy T-shirts with licensed reproductions®© at a retailer near you) and downloading Pulse will not get you a blinking LED in your CD rack (probably the first album ever sold that required batteries. )

That is how they are trying to offer people things pirates cannot, which is kind of sad considering it would probably be cheaper to just open a film studio owned version of iTunes. In an increasingly multimedia world, however, publishers will have to offer more and more multimedia content, which leads inevitably back to computers as the best format for that content and the internet as the best true MEDIUM of disseminating it. So, yeah, the expansive sweep of SO/PIPA are at least as much about getting a handle on that as getting one on piracy, and the public definitely needs to assert its voice in that regard lest the legitimate goal of fighting piracy be made a Trojan horse for a far more unsavory goal. If content can be removed and sites disabled on simply an unspecified allegation of copyright infringement, where does that leave independent/self publishers of wholly original work? They must prove their creations are not in any way derived from already copyrighted work, and the only thing harder than proving a negative is proving an undefined one.

More to the point perhaps, that won't be effective if applied in the US alone anyway. You won't find much support for such measures outside the US, not among the people, not with governments. There are tons of legal barriers already in place elsewhere. Our government didn't lift those barriers protecting our privacy when the US agencies lobbied for it in the name of fighting terrorism, they're not about to lift them for Hollywood.

Allied governments have been pretty cooperative on international anti-terrorist efforts, they just have not always been terribly public about it. One can hardly blame them; not only does that alert terrorists of what actions are being taken against them, but it invites shrieks from civil liberties watch dogs whether or not they are justified. Yet it has still been fairly successful, and in many places the mechanisms were already in place; even before 911 you would have had a hard time walking down a British street without being recorded by a government camera.

Yet, setting aside how much media demand is within the US and countries that view the matter as America does, I do not think a majority, or even sizable minority, of any industrialized country supports piracy. The backlash against SO/PIPA is not defence of piracy or the means exclusively or even mostly employed by it. It is mostly from people who firmly oppose piracy and support laws further reducing it and prosecuting violators, but do not want to be swept up for perfectly legitimate activities as a result, or lose access to perfectly legitimate sites. That is not a change that must be made, it is a status quo that will not change, and should not; the worst thing SO/PIPAs opponents could do for their cause is let Congress identify them with the pirates the new laws rightly target (and most opponents know that very well.)

So Megaupload was operating the online equivalent of a crack house or a hotel catering to prostitutes; law enforcement can and does shut down those places, too, without the ability to target all home or hotel owners. The suggestion the former requires the latter is disingenuous, whether it is Big Media or netizens making the suggestion. Indeed, arguing piracy cannot be effectively stopped without a cyberpolice state is very dangerous, because if Congress accepts that argument it could well adopt such draconian measures. The best "brick and mortar comparison" to Megaupload, however, is warehouses and pawnships filled with stolen blackmarket products: If law enforcement proves the contents stolen they close and seize the building; if they prove the proprietors knew the products were stolen, they prosecute him, all without threatening legitimate warehouses/pawn brokers even slightly.

Pretty much. Analogies go only so far, though. Where it stops working in this case is that there are protocols by which a pawnshop can make sure goods it takes in aren't stolen, so they're pretty much responsible for ensuring they aren't, and held responsible if they are.

Sure there are protocols: Because the pawn shops developed them, mostly in conjunction with law enforcement. They did NOT say, "no, it is up to Sears to ensure the TV we bought from some guy who walked in and showed us a fake ID is not stolen; it is not OUR fault if someone else came in and bought it for a tenth what it was worth because they knew it was stolen." Well, maybe some said that, but they said it while cops were slapping cuffs on them. In every other arena the onus is on the provider and obtainer to verify they are not getting property from Jimmy the Fence, but for some reason it is the owners responsibility to protect their own intellectual property? But only online; if someone prints a hundred thousand copies of The Eye of the World and sells them out of their car for $5 each they can be prosecuted, but if they "only" post it online, well, Tor and Jordan should have made it easier and cheaper to obtain legally.

Yes, the laws are lagging behind the decade or so old technology; yes, the laws will catch up, and soon. The smart thing is to ensure the new laws are not as brazenly and disastrously abused as the technology has been.

The same can't be said of Google, for instance. They can't monitor for instance their millions of free blogs very strictly, and they don't have any sure means to identify content as illegal vs. legal in many cases (they investigate peer denunciations, which they encourage a lot, and for the rest rely on notifications by copyright holders). They can't be expected to filter out links to sites with copyright infringments without getting such a list from some authority in the first place (which is what they get or would get, in some countries that want to ban DNS. Not that Google likes that one bit, and have even denounced it like in the case of China. And Twitter has decided it would censor content that would be illegal in a given country. Those companies are doing what they can to police themselves already, and to remove necessities of laws to control the internet). And yet, SOPA/PIPA gave them the right to get a blog DNS banned, or even the whole service if they could convince a judge the number of blogs with links to illegal content justified it.

Yes, SO/PIPA wrongly create an assumption of guilt rather than innocence, and yes, that goes way too far. The DMCA safe harbor provision is just and vital, and preserving it is an obvious necessity in any anti-piracy law; we do not need or want an internet Star Chamber. Yet censoring content that is illegal within a country is not self-policing that requires no new laws, it is simply complying with existing law. Continuing the pawn shop analogy, obviously a retailer cannot wander into one randomly and say, "you are selling something, I will not say what, stolen from me," and have them arrested. BUT if they come in and say, "this TV with manufacturers serial #8073223432AIC is listed on the shipment manifest from my last delivery, but we reported it stolen because it was not on the truck," that is a different matter. At that point the item is seized as stolen property, and if it is proven the pawn broker KNEW it was stolen when they bought it, they will be charged with knowingly receiving stolen goods, primarily because THEY DID.

Theorically, SOPA/PIPA gave them the means to pressure companies like Google to invest far more in policing its services (or run the risk of being targeted) and put at risk its advertisers, and both would put the whole Google business model in jeopardy (it relies on providing as many services as possible to the greatest number of users, all for free), and Facebook's, and the other giants.

Take down requests with the force of orders have not put anyone out of business, and nothing more would be required. SO/PIPA rightly go much too far beyond that, and more responsible laws are needed, but the only route to those laws is for users to state specifically what is and is not needed. A need exists, and Big Media is clearly no more concerned with going too far than anyone would expect. Google cannot be expected to monitor every character typed on user blogs, but can be expected to remove every character proven to infringe copyright, and remove those accused of such infringement until/unless the accuser(s) fail to prove it. In fact, I am pretty sure Google et al. are QUITE clear users have no right to violate the law on their blogs.

I am fairly certain Google knows how to track and ban IPs; I may not be an expert, but neither am I an idiot.

That's not the issue. People who put up "rogue blogs" and such aren't amateurs either. They know they'll be found and IP banned by Google eventually. They know how to make themselves more elusive than that.

So we track down the people running the blog, and until then require links to them be removed when detected. If people operating them move around so fast government cannot find their sites, individuals seeking pirated data will have no better luck, and that solves the problem. Meanwhile, "tracking and banning" involves more than simply banning, or it would be much harder for cops pursuing pedophiles in online chatrooms to arrest them. Obviously it is a little more difficult with people in foreign countries, unless there is an extradition treaty, but search engines can still be notified to remove the links. Comparing that to the Great Firewall does SO/PIPA opponents no good with Congress, and much harm. Congress will pay no attention to anyone who does not distinguish between requiring search engines to remove links to proven pirate sites and dragging political dissidents from their homes to prison labor camps in the dead of night. Nor should they.

This is not such a massive issue either. The few blogs like that I came accross over the years offered links to files on the servers of corporations like Megaupload, and this is already "old fashioned". The big problem remaining is that Megaupload was in a country with agreements in place with the US, so could be dealt with. Good luck going after similar companies in Russia and co., and banning their DNS won't help much, since we're dealing with more techno-savvy pirates than those using peer-to-peer.

The ultimate solution there is to deny countries lacking western business standards membership in untariffed "free" trade organizations, sanction them or slap them with a total embargo we punish businesses and individuals for breaking. The lesson of the Great Firewall is not "Americans must be eternally vigilant in protecting their 'right' to free mp3s," but that treating countries lacking our trade standards as equal trade partners means we will soon lack them also. There is something deeply twisted and deeply wrong about saying:

1) A $200 tariff, or any tariff, on an imported Chinese TV is an unfair trade practice,

2) Western companies forced to pay their TV makers minimum wage while Chinese companies can pay them with not shooting them IS fair trade and

3) Chinese companies selling copies of stolen copies of DVDs is unfair trade.

Those arguments are especially bizarre and contradictory, not to mention incredibly self-serving, when they are ALL coming from Sony.

That is a much bigger issue than SO/PIPA, or piracy in general, and the simple, practical and ethical solution is to make untariffed trade treaties conditional on fair trade. Countries that will not sign piracy extradition treaties—and a great many other treaties adopting standards on labor, consumer and environmental standards—are subject to commercial penalties for that, up to and including embargo. If retaliatory punitive tariffs are valid for violating provisions of the WTO and other treaties, we need only revise those treaties to include the standards required of businesses within other Western countries. That covers piracy, but a great deal more than that, too, and what infuriates me most about this debate is Big Medias zeal for profiting from all the other blessings of anarchy they enjoy in China (among others) while demanding the SINGLE aspect of US law benefiting them be enforced. Again, I liken it to a pimp calling the cops because the crackwhore he beat up stole his watch.

Most likely, rather than bans, they would simply do as so many ISPs have done and cooperate with the FBI and other authorities in providing evidence of piracy to prosecute people posting copyrighted material and links to either that material or the means to acquire it.

I think even in the US that would raise much uproar, and in many nations they are laws introduced to further protect privacy. Here, it's the ISP that would provide any such information to a third-party without a court mandate that would be heavily fined. Not only that, but there are articles in the law that make it fairly difficult for the entertainment industry to come after individual private users. It's not a viable avenue anyway, few justice systems could cope with that, if the big industry suddenly decided to target thousands and thousands of people all of a sudden.

Well, in the US, if law enforcement, especially federal, wants ISP data access to pursue a criminal investigation, the ISPs have little latitude. That whole "licensed to use publicly owned airwaves in the public interest" thing again. Look at what happened when the feds wanted to tap cell phones or examine call history without a FISA warrant (even though the whole reason FISA exists is to require a warrant first.) All but one of the major cell phone carriers volunteered the desired data as soon as the government stated an interest, and publicly said their privacy agreements did not cover cooperation with criminal investigations. Obviously, any law enforcement agency that actually HAS a warrant will get any information they desire (since it will apparently be granted with a smile even without a warrant.)

I do not think there will ever be any more hue and cry over that with regard to piracy than there was then with regard to terrorism. More importantly, even if there is, it will not make a bit of difference. It does offer some insight into the value of Obamas pledge to veto SO/PIPA: He also repeatedly said he would end the warrantless wiretaps—right up until the moment he was elected. Since then he has not only curtailed, but actually expanded them. So how much do you REALLY think his promise not to sign SO/PIPA "in its current form" is worth? If they are modified even superficially, or if he claims they are, he can sign them and keep that promise. For that matter, he did not promise a VETO; he only said he would not sign them, meaning they would automatically become law within ten days (not counting Sundays) unless he DID veto them or Congress adjourned.

Gotta read the fine print, especially with privacy agreements and ESPECIALLY with Obama.

Keep in mind that practically all online activity in the US falls under the authority of the FCC, and anything crossing state lines (which, at various times, is all of it these days; the whole point of the internet is providing instant access to data anywhere on the planet) also falls under the authority of the ICC. If the US government wanted to impose a jackbooted crackdown, they already have authority to spare.

And won't use it for something like content piracy as they are perfectly aware of the risks involved if they open that Pandora's Box.

Like I say, bigger fish, but for all the credibility-destroying attempts to paint them that way, SO/PIPA are not remotely a jackbooted crackdown, and new laws pursuing piracy more aggressively would not be either. My point was even SO/PIPA do not qualify as some sort of cyberfascism; whether or not netizens agree with that, CONGRESS does not, and they are the ones who make the laws. It would probably be a very good idea to offer the constructive suggestions Obama requested rather than let SO/PIPA opponents be portrayed as anarchists and/or conspiracy nuts. Not that I am saying you are doing that, but a great many opponents are doing a FINE job of that without need for help from Big Media.

They also have bigger fish to fry, but being a low priority is making cyberanarchy and piracy increasingly fat flounders demanding more and more attention.
Increasingly fat flounders? They've just caught what pretty much everyone agrees was the bigger fish in the pond a few weeks ago. The trend is rather to small minnows, with no financial aspects involved in the "transactions".

As many as Megaupload involved. How many luxury cars were parked in front of the mansion again? Let us say for the sake of argument that ALL online piracy were peer-to-peers: Where does one find those peers? Assume someone wants to download, say, the original Star Wars Trilogy. How do they find someone, or rather, dozens of someones, who has it? Unless software lets them type in the title, then goes out, finds places and gets it (in which case we are talking about software that can easily be made illegal to create and distribute, if it is not already,) they must at least find a site with a link, right? A site that, in addition to the link, also posts (for a nominal fee) singles in their area, hot XXX action, 5 ways to make $50,000/week working part time from home, etc.

Yes, increasingly fat flounder; for all the envy directed at overpaid movie stars and industry execs, the guy who ran Megaupload lived in the same opulence they did. He just did not do anything to earn it: THEY did it, then he ripped off their work. In their place, I would be upset also; in the place of an artist hoping to someday create the game, song, whatever that lets him quit the 60 hour a week job he works to feed and house himself and his family, I would probably be murderous. Take the money out of it, mainly by aggressively targeting those making money off it, and we eliminate much of the problem, because we shut off the tap at its source. There will still be people who spend far too much free time illegally cracking copy protected data for free to illegally distribute for free, but supporting themselves and dodging restrictions on sharing illegal data will prevent it causing significant problems.

The real moral is probably not that reducing piracy requires Big Media voluntarily accommodate user demands, but that preventing cybermartial law requires users voluntarily curtail currently easy cybercrime.

Of which they're very little hope without convincing a big enough portion of them to return to legal content, and part of that involves providing better them with better services, and more reasonable prices. That's also the only measure that can be expected to have impact on piracy outside the US as much as it has inside.

The idea is to get between the pirate and his consumers, and it is a good one. That is one way to convince people to return to legal content: Make illegal content unavailable. Another way is to demonstrate to them that piracy has serious negative consequences for themselves as well as Big Media. Both options are better than Big Media trying to bribe people to stop stealing from them. "I will give you $5 if you stop stealing $50/week from me—please...?!" That will never work, and would not be right anyway (extortion is also illegal,) just two of several reasons Big Media will not go down that road.

Congress isn't about to pass anything like cybermartial law merely to curtail piracy of copyrighted content (and just on US soil, at that), not after even far less ambitious bills like SOPA/PIPA got rejected (and found fairly very little support abroad among authorities - except notably France where Sarkozy loves anything if it's American but appears to be on his way out - meaning not many nations would have imitated the US and pass similar laws. Even our very pro-US (though definitely more pro-Republican than pro-Democrat, especially in economical matters) government found those laws went way too far and threatened the development of our internet economic sector (which is fairly big). The next proposals won't widen the bills even more, they'll narrow them down until they become acceptable and don't raise as much opposition.

Hopefully, but only if people provide the necessary input on how to do that. I would not leave that solely to Big Technology either, unless you want a bill that simply carves out exemptions to protect them, and thus that internet economic sector governments want to preserve, while ignoring all civil liberties issues. What will not work, or prevent abusive laws, is starting from the perspective that

1) Piracy is not a big deal,
2) It is the fault of the people being stolen from, not the thieves, and
3) Even if both those things are not true, the law is powerless to stop it.

I do not know how much time you have spent around lawyers or courts, but I have some second hand familiarity with them: When criminals claim they did nothing wrong, it was their victims fault and the law cannot touch them, the result is less often acquittal than an additional contempt of court charge.
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This message last edited by Joel on 04/03/2012 at 01:35:04 AM
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You will never kill piracy, and piracy will never kill you - 05/02/2012 06:56:57 PM 1105 Views
Pretty much - 05/02/2012 08:39:16 PM 323 Views
The article both raises good points and is full of shit - 05/02/2012 11:36:25 PM 593 Views
Re: The article both raises good points and is full of shit - 06/02/2012 02:07:01 AM 491 Views
Re: The article both raises good points and is full of shit - 06/02/2012 02:11:38 AM 521 Views
Then it really seems to differ between our countries - 06/02/2012 10:52:39 AM 463 Views
What are your ticket prices? *NM* - 06/02/2012 12:53:04 PM 203 Views
are those theaters all hollywood movies or from european studios? - 06/02/2012 03:01:37 PM 517 Views
Both, basically - 06/02/2012 04:55:36 PM 518 Views
I just want to comment on a couple things. I feel like you're a little bit behind the times. - 06/02/2012 05:23:40 AM 590 Views
Disagree. *NM* - 06/02/2012 09:38:56 AM 349 Views
Feel like explaining? *NM* - 06/02/2012 03:25:11 PM 180 Views
Well, call me old-fashioned but I think that'll be my preference for a while now. - 06/02/2012 10:36:41 AM 454 Views
It's not just a matter of taste when one technology is demonstrably superior. - 06/02/2012 04:04:27 PM 471 Views
Re: It's not just a matter of taste when one technology is demonstrably superior. - 06/02/2012 04:27:09 PM 355 Views
It's rare, I'll admit. - 06/02/2012 06:19:20 PM 344 Views
My age is gonna show even more in the next reply, but here we go - 06/02/2012 06:25:09 PM 457 Views
Re: My age is gonna show even more in the next reply, but here we go - 06/02/2012 08:13:48 PM 491 Views
I'll give you a hint. - 13/02/2012 03:31:56 PM 589 Views
Re: I'll give you a hint. - 14/02/2012 01:52:50 AM 392 Views
yeah, cinemas here aren't doing so well - 06/02/2012 01:33:06 PM 413 Views
That subject line well encapsulates this whole debate, IMHO. - 07/02/2012 07:52:22 PM 444 Views
That pretty much echoes my opinion on the subject - 06/02/2012 12:56:49 AM 502 Views
Holy text-wall, Batman! - 06/02/2012 12:49:28 PM 401 Views
I did not ask for alternative LAWS, Obama did; I merely quoted him, and this article mentions no law - 07/02/2012 04:50:14 AM 525 Views
you're confusing the issue - 07/02/2012 06:22:30 AM 392 Views
No, I am clarifying the issue. - 07/02/2012 06:54:40 AM 511 Views
again, you are taking the wrong approach - 07/02/2012 03:57:03 PM 490 Views
I disagree, and there are factual errors in your statements. - 07/02/2012 07:36:16 PM 467 Views
actually, there are not - 08/02/2012 04:15:09 AM 376 Views
Yeah, actually there are. - 09/02/2012 01:53:02 AM 484 Views
Re: Yeah, actually there are. - 10/02/2012 04:11:10 AM 418 Views
Technically, the first point is true, but I disagree the distinction is important in terms of piracy - 12/02/2012 01:09:01 AM 416 Views
Without realizing Joel, you're getting closer and closer to some of our views... - 12/02/2012 09:24:22 AM 436 Views
To a large extent my issue is with means rather than ends. - 13/02/2012 09:45:39 AM 510 Views
Re: To a large extent my issue is with means rather than ends. - 13/02/2012 11:43:02 PM 392 Views
Re: To a large extent my issue is with means rather than ends. - 04/03/2012 01:06:26 AM 485 Views
Re: No, I am clarifying the issue. - 07/02/2012 07:52:42 PM 438 Views
It is not the same as taping an album for a friend. - 09/02/2012 01:18:42 AM 484 Views
Re: It is not the same as taping an album for a friend. - 09/02/2012 10:39:05 PM 383 Views
Re: It is not the same as taping an album for a friend. - 12/02/2012 12:04:57 AM 473 Views

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