but, if I get it, you're saying that banning guns won't work well because people with some money and time can just make them anyway? I'm asking, just to make sure I got enough to understand.
And if that's correct, why aren't people in other countries making them up and going on shooting sprees?
And if that's correct, why aren't people in other countries making them up and going on shooting sprees? That is regrettably the short form, the one everyone uses for either for support or to point at. Lacking the specifics your question makes total sense. But the answer is easy... you don't make a shovel when you can buy one, and people in other countries do go on shooting sprees, like that Breivik fellow. One shooting spree versus maybe two a year here, but we outnumber Norway 60:1, hence one incident in thirty years equates to two a year here.... except we haven't had two or three a year, we've had less than one a year, 20 in 30 years, a frequency of 1 per 1.5 years or 1 per 50 year per 10 million people. Sweden, population about 10 million, had one 18 years ago, thus has a higher rate of spree killing than the US, France, population a quarter of ours, has had 3 in the last 20 years, the equivalent of the US having 18 spree killing in 30 years, 90% of ours. The UK had 5 in about 25 years. The Netherlands had one last year. Many countries we have no data on, or unreliable data, but what we can see of US-parallel culture and wealth with gun controls laws is no significant increase or decrease in spree killings. Since the Uiryeong massacre of 1982, 57 dead in S. Korea by a disgruntled cop (kinda hard to keep weapons from them) you've had 20 shooting sprees in the US, and 18 in Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and the United Kingdom... same time, nearly the same population, not sure who has more total there. People play games with the data, both sides, you can cherry pick total deaths or by weapon or etc and have gun laws helping or show the opposite, but the data seems to come up as roughly even. Craziness occurs everywhere and black markets or legal stores make it easier to acquire than home manufacture. Same as LSD or meth, you can make them, easier to buy them, but if you really want one, you will get one.
That is actually interesting to read, thank you.
I don't do the "guns are evil" thing, but I do know they can kill a heck of a lot better than knives or sticks. If I hear "guns don't kill people blahblah" one more time, I'll scream. Yes, you're right, because that's all we're saying. Of course. ARRRGH! (not aiming this at you, clearly, just being annoyed in general)
But I never said that, and not to be picky, but you didn't read my post, which again had to do with auto/semi weapons and ammunition capacity. Guns don't kill people, people kill people and guns are very good ways of aiding in that task. People repeat these phrases till they lose all meaning, I agree, but it's a true statement. It is the insane or criminal mind that commits murder, and their effectiveness will be based on luck, planning, resources, and determination. Remove or limit any leg of that table and you hinder the ability to kill. But we can't do anything about luck, or planning, or determination. But we want to stop killings, so we look at resources, because it's the only one we can touch. Unfortunately some of the means for doing that which seem logical - like banning high capacity mags - really aren't. I oppose virtually gun restrictions but if people want them, they should pick ones that achieve maximum effect with minimum restriction of freedom.
I know you never said that (I did skim), which is why I pointed out that I was not addressing you with that angst. But, I see that you are now agreeing with it
, and I simply do not have any patience for it. It might be factually true, because yes, a gun (generally) has to have been fired by a human hand, but calling it a "resource" when the level of carnage he was going for would have been harder to achieve without guns is at least a little disingenuous. I don't mind if we disagree on this, but I feel pretty strongly about my hate for that phrase. I don't disagree that you have made a point about the effect of different restrictions, etc.
Do you have strong feelings/opinions about gun control?
- 25/07/2012 05:48:56 AM
1464 Views
Kind of?
- 25/07/2012 05:59:39 AM
904 Views
Agreed
- 25/07/2012 06:20:44 AM
754 Views
Re: Agreed
- 25/07/2012 06:29:16 AM
899 Views
A lot of people are uncomfortable about homsexuality. Let's ban that too.
- 25/07/2012 09:26:46 PM
889 Views
I'm pro-guns, but I don't think I have strong feelings about anything
- 25/07/2012 07:36:31 AM
823 Views
Pretty strong (as someone born, raised and living outside the US)
- 25/07/2012 11:23:52 AM
907 Views
Inevitable thread, but mostly I feel people enters this debate without knowing enough about guns
- 25/07/2012 02:05:12 PM
1034 Views
I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry.
- 25/07/2012 02:47:05 PM
939 Views
- 25/07/2012 02:47:05 PM
939 Views
Re: I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry.
- 25/07/2012 03:00:07 PM
841 Views
- 25/07/2012 03:00:07 PM
841 Views
Re:
- 25/07/2012 03:30:44 PM
882 Views
My dad's gun were stolen and the police said they didn't need to even take fingerprints
- 25/07/2012 06:58:36 PM
904 Views
I understand, but you probably should if time permits
- 25/07/2012 03:49:49 PM
1043 Views
It is unlikely to, for a while.
- 25/07/2012 10:37:30 PM
922 Views
Oh, but you have time to read Cannoli though
- 26/07/2012 01:10:50 AM
859 Views
- 26/07/2012 01:10:50 AM
859 Views
... his was shorter?
- 26/07/2012 02:41:48 PM
784 Views
Yeah but mine had diagrams!
- 26/07/2012 03:46:49 PM
862 Views
I do sometimes need pictures.
- 26/07/2012 04:55:17 PM
714 Views
Where exactly did you get those numbers?
- 27/07/2012 07:23:31 PM
879 Views
Wikipedia, the unchallenged source for acurate and complete citation
- 27/07/2012 08:19:40 PM
942 Views
Sorry, I totally forgot about this post, hadn't noticed your replies.
- 31/07/2012 07:42:43 PM
866 Views
I'm not surprised there were missing incidents
- 31/07/2012 08:18:04 PM
840 Views
Norway? Scotland?
- 25/07/2012 09:31:49 PM
813 Views
And yet, the people who do these things tend to be more respectful of guns
- 25/07/2012 03:44:31 PM
828 Views
Well working with dangeorus items tends to lead to respect and caution or a Darwin Award
- 25/07/2012 04:52:13 PM
879 Views
I have no problem with guns, but I agree that assault weapons shouldn't be legal for ordinary people
- 25/07/2012 02:56:38 PM
889 Views
Re: guns
- 25/07/2012 03:07:30 PM
934 Views
what is the basis for your argument that people would have panicked and forgotten their guns?
- 25/07/2012 04:45:46 PM
789 Views
My basis is that people are people - subject to panic, confusion, and fear. *NM*
- 25/07/2012 05:46:58 PM
470 Views
Most people who regularly carry weapons reach for them when spooked, in my experience
- 25/07/2012 06:14:57 PM
835 Views
Re: Most people who regularly carry weapons reach for them when spooked, in my experience
- 25/07/2012 06:45:02 PM
938 Views
Putting your hand on something is a little different then shooting someone
- 25/07/2012 08:13:59 PM
794 Views
The problem with banning assualt weapons is the defention is mostly cosmetic
- 25/07/2012 05:29:35 PM
786 Views
Bullshit
- 26/07/2012 01:52:59 PM
934 Views
I call Bullshit on your Bullshit
- 26/07/2012 02:59:09 PM
843 Views
Or
- 26/07/2012 03:20:12 PM
752 Views
There a lot of us with military training and some were in that theater
- 26/07/2012 03:43:52 PM
765 Views
HE was talking about normal people.
- 26/07/2012 04:53:16 PM
869 Views
i have pretty strong feelings that they should be better regulated than they currently are
- 25/07/2012 03:18:10 PM
784 Views
Correct me if I'm wrong....
- 25/07/2012 03:53:07 PM
1013 Views
I believe it was the ammunition he bought in large amounts online, not the guns themselves.
- 25/07/2012 07:22:31 PM
811 Views
Yes and I am glad it's not my problem.
- 25/07/2012 06:41:56 PM
923 Views
Well, you're missing the flaw in your reasoning...probably because you're appallingly ignorant
- 25/07/2012 09:19:18 PM
1012 Views
Come back when you can discuss something without attacking someone.
- 26/07/2012 12:58:47 AM
811 Views
Dude, your burglary argument makes no sense
- 25/07/2012 11:09:37 PM
819 Views
They don't bring guns here. Huh. *NM*
- 26/07/2012 12:59:15 AM
403 Views
they don't typically bring guns here either
- 26/07/2012 02:01:14 AM
915 Views
That's how I understand it too but I'm dubious, many criminals are dumber than a bag of hammers
- 26/07/2012 02:22:18 AM
763 Views
Like I've always said, you can't un-invent the gun
- 25/07/2012 11:05:22 PM
785 Views
the argument of if America should have a lot guns is a long over
- 26/07/2012 03:29:50 PM
748 Views
See, there's another one of those BS stats tricks, 'family members' includes suicides and murder
- 26/07/2012 06:47:54 PM
777 Views
Sure, but you can legislate certain excessive firearms.
- 26/07/2012 09:41:12 PM
852 Views
assault rifles are banned
- 26/07/2012 10:51:28 PM
824 Views
I know the distinction. That's why I want a more clearly defined term for "assault weapon."
- 27/07/2012 09:46:11 AM
954 Views
Then stay away from the hyperbole because an Uzi is a sub machinegun so it is banned
- 27/07/2012 01:48:50 PM
799 Views
