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My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic Isaac Send a noteboard - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM

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View original post... and gave him rather glowing praise while they did it. In the news release from the MCB linked there their own secretary-general said "Yusuf Al Qaradawi enjoys unparalleled respect and influence throughout the Muslim world" and criticized the gov't for being 'pro-Zionist', I'm not really sure how someone can put their name and their whole organization behind defending the guy and not expect to be viewed as two-faced. Had they just said 'He is an influential if controversial speaker convicted of no crime, free speech protects even that which we disagree' it might be different, but you can't give a guy props that way when he's said those things and not have legitimate doubts raised as to just how non-violent and moderate you are. This is their own news release, a crafted document, and nowhere in there was their even a gesture towards criticism like 'although the MCB disagrees with many...' and the thing is still up on their site! They didn't come back afterwards and say 'uh, maybe this needs toned down or qualified or something'.


View original postTo be honest I'm really not surprised about that, it's fairly typical in my experience for the kind of wishy-washy positions generally taken by the Muslim organizations in Western countries, which seek some impossible balance between being sufficiently politically correct to not be branded extremists by the political mainstream, while still satisfying even the more rebellious elements among the people they represent. They often fail in both respects, sometimes even at the same time, but one can see why they keep trying. CAIR is not very different in that sense.

In my experience your average middle-eastern isn't radical, just generally ignorant of virtually everything more than a mile from their home. A lot of these alleged 'voices for moderation' aren't playing to their audience's prejudices, they actively try to instill them. Which isn't very hard, sadly, you really have to spend some time there, out in the sticks, to appreciate what a bizarre blend of modern and medieval there is.


View original postThe sad part is that "Yusuf Al Qaradawi enjoys unparalleled respect and influence throughout the Muslim world" is really close enough to the truth to make it entirely justifiable as a statement by an organization as impossibly placed as the MCB (or CAIR). The man is an idiot, but an influential one. Still, I don't think releasing such statements or sponsoring him for a visum is irreconcileable with taking a pro-peace and anti-violence stance, as such. If you're going to limit your selection of invited speakers or guests to those Arab Muslims who publicly and invariably condemn Hamas and Hizbullah and defend Israel, well, your list is going to be very, very short and you're making yourself largely irrelevant at least among the people you're supposed to represent (even if you become a darling of some other groups in the process). That doesn't have that much to do with religion and all the more with nationalism and politics. If you think political correctness in the west is stifling debate, you've clearly never taken a look at the Arab countries - except that their brand of political correctness has some very different dogmas and truths that must never be spoken than ours.

Like I said, I don't object over the sponsorship so much as the glowing praise in it sans so much as a hat-tip to 'Not someone we always agree with'. There's also limits of how far you can use the free speech umbrella before you're legitimately tainted by association. Big difference between the ACLU backing the KKK's right to march and if they came out praising them. You don't have to criticize them, but you can't praise someone then raise the 'free speech shield', that's not how it works. You can bring Bashir al-Assad on TV for an interview and criticize him, you can bring him on and remain staunchly neutral, you can't bring him on, call him an exceptional leader and be immune to being called a sympathizer for a mass murderer. We can talk abut respecting their beliefs and their own moderate voice's need to walk a fine line but we do need to keep in mind that a lot of those beliefs can be described without a hint of hyperbole and still violate Godwin's Law.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 3063 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 1012 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 918 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 971 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1555 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1661 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 929 Views
FALSE! - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1676 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1617 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1861 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1655 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1941 Views
Ok....and? - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1520 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 956 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1587 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 996 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1630 Views
LOL. - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1569 Views
Violence.... - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1612 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 1448 Views
You are something... - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1511 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 960 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1488 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1578 Views
Yes. - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1495 Views
Re: Yes. - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1583 Views
You know better than that. - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1565 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1658 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 902 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1519 Views
... ? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 954 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 894 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1545 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1449 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1610 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1574 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1576 Views
Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1659 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1672 Views
No, it actaully does not. - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1635 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 1464 Views
Exactly - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1564 Views
Couple of things - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1897 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1722 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1575 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1588 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1604 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1438 Views
That's a shame. - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 1418 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1452 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 1409 Views
Sure, I'll bite. - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1616 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1508 Views
I hope you like black and white. - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 1425 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1516 Views
I think I must have confused you. - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 1411 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1483 Views
Not really - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1513 Views
Yawn. Bored now. - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 1455 Views
whatever *NM* - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 843 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1758 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1618 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1841 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 1435 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1546 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1502 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1698 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 862 Views
I agree. *NM* - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 925 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1618 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1530 Views
Oh, so its our fault... - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1491 Views
It's always our fault *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 1045 Views
In general, I agree - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1652 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1525 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 964 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1593 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1433 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1632 Views
Exactly. - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1566 Views
Hyperbole? - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 1416 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1676 Views
No, I really don't think so. - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1480 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1428 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1601 Views
It's accurate. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 930 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1498 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1612 Views
Hm - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1563 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1577 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1516 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 914 Views
No - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1577 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1525 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1521 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 963 Views
I already knew - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1469 Views
No. - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1488 Views
What a load of bullshit. - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1500 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1636 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1627 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1472 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1578 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 894 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1522 Views
Well yes. - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1466 Views
I would prefer to say that - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1668 Views
Of course you would. - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1580 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1676 Views
Ok. - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1672 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1909 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1733 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1593 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1558 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 949 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 883 Views
Statistically - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1629 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1621 Views
Hardly any - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1743 Views
I think probably not. - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1529 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 879 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 866 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 870 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1461 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 906 Views
Yes, he did. - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1479 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 939 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 1430 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1556 Views
You mean like this? - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1645 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1471 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 892 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1525 Views
Yes it does. - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1532 Views
*sigh* - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1392 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 1446 Views
no but they do tell a story - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 1354 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1540 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 914 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1720 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 2262 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1601 Views
Just as a little aside - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1466 Views
Ever helpful. - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1670 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 2249 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1638 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 2219 Views
I'm having warm feelings. - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1621 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 2031 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1850 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 1218 Views
How much did you miss it, really? - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1560 Views

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