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Re: That's a shame. Isaac Send a noteboard - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM

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View original postIn my experience your average middle-eastern isn't radical, just generally ignorant of virtually everything more than a mile from their home. A lot of these alleged 'voices for moderation' aren't playing to their audience's prejudices, they actively try to instill them. Which isn't very hard, sadly, you really have to spend some time there, out in the sticks, to appreciate what a bizarre blend of modern and medieval there is.


View original postI was talking about Muslims in Europe more than those in the Middle-East, can't claim any personal experience with that latter group unlike you. Although having studied Arabic, Islam and Islamic history, I think I have a reasonably good idea, albeit on a more academic than personal level, of the bizarre blend you describe. For sure, the most notable thing about opinion polls among Muslims like the Pew one published a couple of weeks ago, is how many times the results seem to contradict each other, at least at first glance and in the eyes of westerners, and the massive confusion about what precisely shariah means is only one small part of that.

Well let me add in a disclaimer, I am by no means claiming expertise in this area, quite the opposite, my time there and the circumstances around it result a fairly high degree of ambivalence, which doesn't make for fertile ground to cultivate objective thought in, to put it mildly.

You're right that the contradiction is mostly at surface detail, the most obvious analogy I think would be the police, possibly a very apt one in other respects too. It is very easy for people to simultaneously positive and negative views on law enforcement, akin to the ambivalence I remarked on feeling, and for the police to feel the same way about their own beats. It is not at all uncommon for inner city leaders to praise law enforcement one moment then turn around and blame them for every problem and accuse them of exaggerated or even imaginary abuses. Depending on the individual this may be entirely logical and reasonable or outright cynical power games.


View original postCertainly you are right about how we shouldn't mistake ignorance for radicalism. But plenty of Middle Easterners, whether in Europe or there, are far from ignorant - their seemingly radical stances are born of the narrow intertwining of religion and politics that has characterized mainstream Sunni Islam almost since its beginning (and Twelver Shi'a as well, really), the way their leaders abuse both for propaganda to make people overlook their constant failures - and simply their perspective. I think it's important to understand how a Muslim can e.g. support Hamas or Hizbullah, without being either ignorant or particularly radical. Hell, even some non-Muslims do that, the more extreme elements of the pro-Palestinians on the European left (though one could justifiably ask why I call them extreme if they aren't Muslim, and not if they hold the exact same view but are Muslim...).

The tendency to use nationalism or traditionalism along with foreign or minority scapegoats to cover over rampant incompetence or corruption is, of course, hardly uncommon. Ditto the habit of glossing over the faults of enemy-of-my-enemy allies. Don't know if there's a Europe-wide generally-right pro-Israeli Hawk faction that might inspire that though.


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View original postLike I said, I don't object over the sponsorship so much as the glowing praise in it sans so much as a hat-tip to 'Not someone we always agree with'. There's also limits of how far you can use the free speech umbrella before you're legitimately tainted by association. Big difference between the ACLU backing the KKK's right to march and if they came out praising them. You don't have to criticize them, but you can't praise someone then raise the 'free speech shield', that's not how it works. You can bring Bashir al-Assad on TV for an interview and criticize him, you can bring him on and remain staunchly neutral, you can't bring him on, call him an exceptional leader and be immune to being called a sympathizer for a mass murderer. We can talk abut respecting their beliefs and their own moderate voice's need to walk a fine line but we do need to keep in mind that a lot of those beliefs can be described without a hint of hyperbole and still violate Godwin's Law.


View original postDon't misunderstand me - I am not saying the MCB made the right decision or the only possible decision there, necessarily, just that it's an understandable decision.

It's understandable, but it still opens the door for justified cynicism toward them.


View original postAnd I hope it's clear by now how I'm not a fan of Yusuf Al Qaradawi. But I will admit, my reasons for that have very little to do with his support for Hamas or Hizbullah. More with his arrogance and the way he's constantly referred to as such a big authority without ever having shown anything in the way of vision or leadership that I've seen - stop the presses, Qaradawi says the Taliban shouldn't blow up the Bamiyan Buddhas, then surely they won't! And being Egyptian, he gave some revoltingly weaselly comment on female genital mutilation in the article Hyoga linked to, which is actually a good illustration of how politics and culture and religion are inextricably linked, since e.g. an Iraqi or Iranian counterpart would have strongly discouraged or outright forbidden the practice.

I'm sure he has a vision, I'd just guess it is decidedly narcissistic in nature. People who try to straddle that many fences publicly either are in it for personal glorification or have one very specific and public goal they make no secret of.


View original postAnyway - it's been a long day, and I'm not really sure how much sense I'm making here - at the end of the day Qaradawi IS one of the single most influential Muslim clerics in the world, and while the MCB could of course have included some obligatory criticism of him in their published statement, it makes plenty of sense to me that they didn't, and I don't think that makes them radical. It just makes them tightrope walkers, who choose to conserve political capital for battles that matter more. Radicalizing young Muslims already find them weaklings who kowtow to the political establishment, I've no doubt, and would think that even more if they criticized even someone as mainstream as Qaradawi.

You're making sense, and I forgot the time zone difference. I'm open to the possibility of what you're suggesting, tight-rope-wise, and indeed I do believe that is often the case, nor do I take as a given that the Sec-general of a group automatically is a good and/or representative spokesman. However, I do think the more cynical interpretation applies to some and I don't think we want to be cutting too much slack either. But I'm tired myself, and we're far outside my zone of expertise for me to be able to get any more solid or specific.


View original postIn (Arab) Islam and in Arab politics both, there is a great deal of "political correctness" as I said - so many things one has to pay lipservice to, so many things one can't publicly say without being attacked from all sides. But one has to realize that, and realize that due to that, people may not always be as radical as they seem. Some of the things they say may just be formulaic and near-obligatory without them really meaning them. Arab politicians in the West, in which group I include the leaders of organizations like MCB or CAIR, have real and concrete goals and causes that they need their influence and their political capital for, such as trying to keep radicalizing youth under control, and so taking on those taboos is really just a stupid distraction from that.

Well, in the US anyway, with the endless cycles of immigrants, we've always cut a certain extra slack for those community leaders juggling total integration with 'the old country' views, trying to find either an optimal integration or at least an acceptable one. I'd imagine much the same applies elsewhere. Nevertheless, I don't think there's anything like the degree of anti-immigrant hostility that justifies either the radicalism or the extra slack to those immigrant community leaders in dealing with it, in terms of two-faced rhetoric. I'm not blind to the fact that there is still a lot of hostility, and some fairly intense pockets of it, Burqa bans and all, but its definitely not the 'bad old days', so to speak. The problem is that most of the reasonable goals I've heard - and many are reasonable, we can not deny some, at best, troubling double-standards seem in play, varying in type and degree from nation to nation in the West - do not seem to justify, or even benefit from, warm ties with radical elements. Quite the opposite, I'd say.


View original postNote: Yes, I'm aware that there are more Pakistani and Indian British Muslims than Arab ones, and so the matter gets more complicated, but let's not go into that.

Agreed, the matter is confusing enough as is.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2520 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 708 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 612 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 691 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1056 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1118 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 638 Views
FALSE! - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1152 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1112 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1260 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1120 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1417 Views
Ok....and? - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 977 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 674 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1052 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 724 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1132 Views
LOL. - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1056 Views
Violence.... - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1037 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 901 Views
You are something... - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 986 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 670 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 967 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1067 Views
Yes. - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1011 Views
Re: Yes. - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1034 Views
You know better than that. - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1020 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1133 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 625 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 986 Views
... ? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 656 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 614 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1014 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 956 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1101 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1030 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1032 Views
Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1106 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1137 Views
No, it actaully does not. - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1119 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 915 Views
Exactly - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1049 Views
Couple of things - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1334 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1233 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1058 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1025 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1064 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 928 Views
That's a shame. - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 867 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 971 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 879 Views
Sure, I'll bite. - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1031 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 974 Views
I hope you like black and white. - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 919 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 974 Views
I think I must have confused you. - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 890 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 988 Views
Not really - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 999 Views
Yawn. Bored now. - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 928 Views
whatever *NM* - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 574 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1226 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1121 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1311 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 912 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1031 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 998 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1151 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 568 Views
I agree. *NM* - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 625 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1111 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 998 Views
Oh, so its our fault... - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1021 Views
It's always our fault *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 756 Views
In general, I agree - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1145 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 986 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 692 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1083 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 934 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1117 Views
Exactly. - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1051 Views
Hyperbole? - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 869 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1133 Views
No, I really don't think so. - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 932 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 928 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1098 Views
It's accurate. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 636 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 987 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1105 Views
Hm - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1080 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1055 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1052 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 631 Views
No - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1073 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1042 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1005 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 648 Views
I already knew - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 967 Views
No. - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 985 Views
What a load of bullshit. - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1000 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1151 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1129 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 966 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1067 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 605 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1016 Views
Well yes. - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 966 Views
I would prefer to say that - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1173 Views
Of course you would. - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1062 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1134 Views
Ok. - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1131 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1353 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1232 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1079 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1068 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 669 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 594 Views
Statistically - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1128 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1117 Views
Hardly any - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1242 Views
I think probably not. - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1019 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 594 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 590 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 576 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 938 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 629 Views
Yes, he did. - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 985 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 614 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 929 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1072 Views
You mean like this? - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1115 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 953 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 621 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1039 Views
Yes it does. - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1036 Views
*sigh* - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 946 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 917 Views
no but they do tell a story - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 860 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1031 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 636 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1202 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 1624 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1045 Views
Just as a little aside - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 965 Views
Ever helpful. - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1138 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 1523 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1112 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 1557 Views
I'm having warm feelings. - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1113 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1417 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1331 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 841 Views
How much did you miss it, really? - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1031 Views

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