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They don't, yet they obviously do, that's the whole problem Isaac Send a noteboard - 11/08/2013 11:08:35 PM

View original postBut then, I have long been leery of the kneejerk "there's a particle for that" panacea; I still contend that after it worked the first few times it has become a case of "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Perhaps it is as simple as Hawking Radiation; we know black holes stimulate X-ray emission near their high energy event horizons, so perhaps they also stimulate graviton emission (particularly if the dissolution of matter entering event horizons reaches a point OUTSIDE them that nothing large enough to retain gravitons persists.)

We used to joke when I was in college that particle physics was the act of kicking a dog and using the bark emitted to determine everything about the dog, more or less the hammer/nail analogy. But Hawking radiation wouldn't function that way, the more massive a black hole the more gravity it has, more gravitons, HR works the opposite way, very large black holes emit almost none, very small ones emit huge amounts and it goes with the square of mass inverted. Double an objects mass and you'd expect double the gravitons, but 1/4th the Hawking Radiation if it had an event horizon. In any event this gets into 'virtual gravitons' that in theory could ignore the event horizon but the whole Quantum Gravity much like Grand Unified stuff is hazy, troublesome, etc.


View original postRegarding Olbers Paradox itself, a few follow up questions:


View original post1) I thought we had established matter is NOT uniformly distributed throughout the universe, that the universe is "clumpy." Basically, BGs question. The mere existence of things like planets, stars and clusters (the last of which all but implicitly concedes nonuniformity) amid vast vacuums tends to suggest that anyway. "Homogeneous" and "uniform" are not interchangeable, after all; homogeneousness permits, but uniformity precludes, clumping. The mediocrity principle only carries us so far, and is a tendency, not an absolute; the Sol is a mediocre star, as observation of countless others like it confirms, but life is uncommon (to say the least,) as the absence of any extraterrestrial examples also confirms.

Uniformly distributed at a certain scale, once randomness and local effects cancel out. Spill a trillion peas into the Sahara and some will clump together, some areas will be empty, some will form smiley faces, zoom out enough and the effect is even distribution. Somethings do this nicely, gases at room temperature and pressure in a spherical shell without gravity or any external radiation source will be pretty smooth but if you zoom in enough you'll see clumping and patterns. Put it back into gravity and you'll find more particles near the bottom and near the top fewer faster moving ones. Examine a smooth table with a microscopes and it resembles mountain ranges and valleys and they unique, not patterned.

As the mediocrity principle, well we call these things principles because they're unprovable assumptions but ones not contradicted by available evidence which also seem reasonable.


View original post2) Okay, intervening matter must re-emit all radiation absorbed (though, if I understand the Second Law of Thermodynamics correctly, it cannot re-emit ALL of it.) That does not mean it is re-emitted in the same direction it initially traveled; in the case of reflection that is the sole direction in which it CANNOT leave the intervening particle.

It can radiate away all of it, it is true that if a speck of space dirt absorbs a photon it will pick up momentum equal to the photons, but if another strikes it from the opposite direction it will come back to a relative stop and need to spit out all that energy. It will do it based on its temperature, if its absorbing more than it's emitting its temperature will rise, and it will emit more radiation as a result. Goes with the 4th power of absolute temperature. Which is to say an object sitting a 3 Kelvin, insterstellar void, is 100 times cooler than Earth, 300 K, and thus the Earth emits 100^4 or 100,000,000x as much background radiation as it would if you shut the sun off and let the Earth cool to Universe standard. A red Dwarf, warmed by its internal fusion to 3000K, would give up 10 Billion times as much as if it simply were shut off. Everything in the Universe is being constantly pounded by photons, outside of proximity to a star, maybe 100 AU or so, this evens out so they tend to come about evenly from all directions, though there'd always be some gradient of course, but the random dust mote is being smacked around constantly by photons in good old fashioned Brownian motion. And a lot of them too, space is not very dark at all, some orb with a square meter of surface area sitting the void at 2.7 K will emit σT^4, σ ≈ 5.67 × 10−8 Wm2K4), or 3 microwatts, and because a microwave has only about 10^-23 joules of energy per photon, that means every second it is emitting about 3x10^17 photons, or about 300 million billion of them a second. It's also being hit by the same number a second from basically every single direction so all that momentum it is absorbing neutralizing out and the energy has nowhere else to go but out via photons.

If I shine a light on it, say a 40 watt flashlight, it will begin to warm up (and move away) until it begins radiating 40 watts minus whatever small amount is going into momentum, if I stick to flashlights on it, either side to hold it stable, it will warm up until it gets to 80 watts of radiaiton. In this case 80 = σT^4 --> 10/σ = T^4 = 1.4x10^9 --> T = 193k, or -80 celsius, if I stuck 6 flashlights around it, top/bottom, left/right, front/back it would rise to 254k, or Montana in the Winter. It would take some time to get there, it's true, based on its mass and such, a hollow beachball doing so much faster then a lead ball, but it would reach equilibrium and pretty quickly in most cases. Minutes, days, when talking about objects that aren't big like dust or rocks. A one ton object with a specific heat of 1 (water) stores 4 million joules per degree and most objects are within an order of magnitude of that, so our orb here absorbing a 40 watt flashlight gets there in around 100,000 seconds, just over a day, call it two since its radiating significantly as it warms too, just not as much. Most stuff in the Universe absorbing light is smaller in mass compared to absorption, a big space rock doesn't absorb as much light as an equal mass of gas, so this effect takes a lot less then a day.

Back to our closed solar system though, with an equal amount of sun and gas. Now it depends on the star, but our own emits 4x10^26 watts and has a mass of 2x10^31 kg, and again it takes about 4000 joules per kg to raise things a degree. It's going to take about 200,000,000 seconds for the sun to heat that other gas up a single degree, to get it to its own 5000k it's going to need a trillion seconds. That's only about 300,000 years though. Of course the calculations of how much dust were based on how much was needed to block that much light at a certain radius and its far lower, enough for the heating to occur in mere days. The infinitely reflective surface is imaginary but analogous to Olber's Paradox conditions, there's light coming from everywhere replacing what leaves/


View original postSpeaking of tendencies like the mediocrity principle, once all the facts are in paradoxes tend to be exposed as fallacies based on ignorant assumptions. To a great extent sciences chief accomplishment is uncovering and analyzing the facts to expose such fallacies; if it proves its postulates, it disproves others at least as often.

I usually consider science's greatest accomplishments to be penicillin, man on the moon, pacemakers, plentiful free online porn and such but yes a case can be made that uncovering various paradoxes as of yet unresolved is quite an accomplishment. Keep in mind that many of these paradoxes, like Olber's have been solved and aren't paradoxes at all, this may or may not be true of the rest of them and any others we uncover but I don't subscribe to the notion that there's always some new mystery to be solved, just ones we can't solve or haven't solved yet

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
This message last edited by Isaac on 12/08/2013 at 03:09:14 AM
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Bored and irritated rumination on Olber's Paradox - 28/07/2013 03:21:37 AM 704 Views
I initially read that as "urinated." - 28/07/2013 04:17:47 AM 435 Views
It's tied to the Copernican Principle - 28/07/2013 05:09:58 AM 500 Views
That makes sense. Thanks, Issac! *NM* - 28/07/2013 03:54:54 PM 211 Views
Expansion's a bitch, innit? *NM* - 28/07/2013 04:37:26 AM 228 Views
I'm not saying it's aliens ... - 28/07/2013 06:03:25 AM 509 Views
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Well - 28/07/2013 04:49:06 PM 567 Views
Re: Well - 28/07/2013 10:28:22 PM 597 Views
I always wonder about the magic solution to fix the math - 29/07/2013 01:30:23 PM 405 Views
Sure, that's basically what Dark Energy is - 29/07/2013 07:30:00 PM 449 Views
I, in turn, always wondered how black holes would permit gravitons to function. - 11/08/2013 09:37:39 PM 516 Views
They don't, yet they obviously do, that's the whole problem - 11/08/2013 11:08:35 PM 526 Views
Probably the first and last time "man on the moon" was put on par with "plentiful free online porn." - 12/08/2013 02:09:36 AM 490 Views
The latter is admittedly a far greater accomplishment - 12/08/2013 05:06:17 AM 623 Views
Meh, porn predates civilization; its novelty has faded. - 13/08/2013 06:36:13 AM 457 Views
I think most people would disagree - 13/08/2013 07:09:38 AM 1992 Views
Re: I think most people would disagree - 14/08/2013 09:05:32 AM 551 Views
Interesting Read - 30/07/2013 02:24:31 AM 391 Views
Re: Interesting Read - 30/07/2013 04:19:34 AM 402 Views
Fair enough - 30/07/2013 12:15:15 PM 434 Views
What if the universe is more like a sea urchin? - 30/07/2013 04:04:56 PM 459 Views
Re: What if the universe is more like a sea urchin? - 30/07/2013 11:04:49 PM 448 Views

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