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Re: I think most people would disagree Joel Send a noteboard - 16/08/2013 07:37:46 AM

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View original postThat aside, your history of Olbers Paradox indicates it was rather obscure for most of its existence, which is relevant to its endurance. Recall my frequent observation few big controversies would exist if admitting easy answers; they also would not be big if few people cared or even knew about them. When most of the smartest people hotly debate a question they cannot answer with even the most advanced experimental equipment, it is likely that answer is beyond the smartest people, most advanced equipment or both. Such answers tend to be big unless defying all practical application, because they mean the human race did something previously impossible for it. The longer a question defies answer by the best minds and equipment, the bigger its answer is likely to be if/when finally discovered.

It wasn't 'obscure', not at all, more like "Where did all the matter from the Big Bang come from?", everyone knew of it but it wasn't something you could write up a formal scientific paper on because it is frowned on to say "I have no fucking clue" at the end of a long treatise. It wasn't publish or perish at the time, it was don't publish unless you had something pretty solid. The concept is routinely referred to back then though and in a very everybody-knows kind of way.

All the same, it evidently was not a very high priority; once we had the answer there were not front page headlines declaring, "Huge Centuries Old Scientific Mystery Solved!" Remember, it is not a big controversy if few people care OR know about it; if everyone knows but no one cares it is still a "meh" question. In the grand scheme, finding an elusive explanation why fundamental things do NOT happen ranks well below finding elusive explanations why fundamental things DO happen. If I am Newton, universal gravitation is a far more significant study than Olbers Paradox.
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View original postObviously that will not ALWAYS be the case, but the circumstances of longstanding, widely and well studied, conundrums are conducive to it. By way of analogy, the Moon was neither paradox nor discovery, but if getting there were simple the worlds wealthiest and most advanced nations would not have spent a decade and billions of dollars trying, and the necessary advances had a host of radical lasting impacts wholly unrelated to space travel. There were plenty of breakthroughs most people rarely remember (if even aware of them) because the landing itself so overshadows them.

The moon has had a fair share of paradoxes around it as has both Jupiter and Saturn's. Look up "1003 Second Delay" or "Abberation of Light" sometime for Jupiter and there's all sorts of horrible conundrums involving Saturn's rings and our own moon. Not all are resolved yet either, for instance while we now know those rings aren't literal thin discs obviously proving God's existence we've got a lot of issues involving their composition and brightness that contradict various age estimates in favor of others that haven't been resolved, including the one band that rotates backwards.

Whose side are you supporting? There are lots of paradoxes, sure, but the Moon itself (i.e. its existence) was never among them, and never unknown. It still took a lot of innovation and bootstrap levitation to GET there, and their incidental dividends were and are more than merely "incidental." Exploring any frontier produces novelty and innovation, by definition; the only variables are their number and magnitude. It is entirely possible resolving a paradox shifts no paradigms, as evidenced by your cited examples of such, but the larger and more enduring the paradox, the more likely its resolution DOES radically and fundamentally change things.
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View original postOkay, I follow that; thanks. I try to accept my limitations at least until/unless they can be overcome.

Learn calculus and they'll make more sense

No doubt, but I am not Newton and my periodic efforts at autodidactic calculus have been far less successful than his. The issue is almost certainly discipline, but remember, I got high marks in honors math classes by overcoming sloppy carelessness with tenacious brute force: Work and check the problem until getting the same answer twice, at which point the law of averages says it is PROBABLY correct, since the likelihood of all the same mistakes (but no others) at all the same points is increasingly unlikely as complexity increases. Once we were tasked with finding the formula for three dimensional distance and visually presenting its proof; I figured out the formula AND proof for the whole class within a minute or two of receiving the assignment, but got the lowest grade because my presentation sucked out loud.

So it tends to be "slow and steady wins the race," and doubly so when there is no way to ask clarification. Maybe I should just plow in and hassle you, moondog and our old engineering friend with emails every time I have a question. I usually got better test scores than that engineer when we were in the same math classes, but he always finished before me—EVERYONE did.


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View original postFair enough, though I am leery of equating "unknown" or "undetected" with "exotic," mainly because the Particle Zoos spawned "new particles" almost monthly in the early days before people began to realize many of were just composites and particular interactions of existing particles. SOME Dark Matter consists solely of particles already present in the Standard Model, even if current indications are most does not. Without dredging up our MACHO discussion a while back, "strange matter," despite the misleading name, is still just quarks. It is one thing to say, "observations do not match theoretical predictions, so we are missing something," but quite another to say, "this model requires that 'something' be this particle with these properties." That sounds more like an excuse than a reason.

We've found quite a few particles by predicting something of about X mass needed to exist then hunting for one by creating collisions of that energy range. There's nothing wrong with predicting that way, so long as you label it a theoretical particle until you find one.

Oh, I realize it has frequently worked—that is the PROBLEM. The approach is valid with your stated caveat, but over time the absence of counterevidence can and too often DOES become evidence of absent counterevidence. Especially when a theory is plausible and persistent enough people start building new ones upon it; then the second theory REQUIRES the firsts validity, and people can be resistant to conclusions 1) refuting something they consider so certain and basic they 2) spent years constructing their own work on its foundation.

Look at string theory, or GUTs in general, and proton decay in particular. Many models require proton decay, prompting their authors and acolytes to resist and/or rationalize away arguments against it—even though proton decay is highly unorthodox, purely hypothetical and lacks any supporting evidence (despite decades and billions of dollars spent seeking it.) People dislike having their babies killed, whoever the killer and however good the reason, and often treat setting fire to the crib as no more than an especially outrageous unjustifiable homicide.

So sure, as long as we recognize unconfirmed hypotheticals—however longstanding—as just that, rather than elevating them to sacred cows (or sacred Flying Spaghetti Monsters,) fine. We can build on that foundation with the understanding the construction is just as hypothetical, and if it keeps working (i.e. receiving ultimate experimental conversation) there is no need to re-invent the wheel. However, when we come to broken ground progress requires more than a wheel and lots of elbow grease, and as long as we restrict ourselves to fancy new variations of the wheel because it always worked before we cannot move forward even an inch.


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View original postNot always positively though, at least not in terms of absolute energy. Red-shifting must lower the amount of energy we receive from an object, because raising wavelengths lowers frequencies and thus energy (I had never thought about it that way, but E=hf means it must be so.) So the brightness might not change, but it could well dip below visible lights threshold, and the energy level could fall until erasing all risk of cooking the universes center (if it had one.)

"Absolute Energy" is an iffy concept. An object moving fast relative to you has to be treated as having gravity equal to that extra mass energy. Temperature is also subject to relativity. Brightness, a somewhat vague term, does change, as a billion red photons are not as bright as a billion blue ones but much brighter then a billion infrared ones. An object emits X number of photons as blackbody, that's set, linear to surface area and to the cube of temperature. That's number of photons, power output goes as the 4th power of temp because the frequency/energy of photons goes linear to the temp. Those individual photons exist, their number is not relative. The energy of them is, so a hot blackbody racing past us, much like a vehicle siren sounding higher pitched till it passes us then lower pitched, can change. If I take a big mile wide orb and heat it up to 5000 kelvin and shoot it from a rail gun at Jupiter aimed to fly past Earth missing it by a thousand miles it will appear Green when it launches, but blue once it reaches its peak speed, until it flies past us and turns red. During that time that it is very close to Earth so that the light hitting us is moving at a steep angle relative to it's direction of motion it will dip to bluish green then green then yellow, orange, and finally red. Never did the number of photons change, but the energy of them, to us, did. Now our eyes are way too logarithmic, not too mention differently sensitive to red, blue, and green specifically, to notice, especially with the object having inverse-square alteration to its brightness from getting closer then further away, but the object will be dimming as it approaches and shifts redder as it no longer is as relativistic to us, even as it grows brighter form being closer.

Again, unsure we are saying different things. Relative energy is the issue relevant to Olbers, and if red shift is high enough it will take many photons for us to even notice. c limits red shift magnitude, but objects do not re-emit all energy absorbed either, and emission amounts fall as their motion (and so red (or blue) shifts) rises.
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View original postThat was pretty much where I was going, yeah, even if I tried multiple routes to the destination. A photon or anything else striking a very low mass, surface area and density object should transfer a significant portion of its energy into new motion. Such particles can not absorb or emit much energy in the first place, have very little stationary inertia to overcome and there is little nearby to slow them once moving. If a mountain struck a pebble (only) even at very low speed the pebble would take off like a rocket because, hey, what else could it do? Per the Adams reference, our infinitely large onion could have an infinite number of very small (or even very large) particles between its inner and outer layers and the limit of its density would STILL be 0.

Joel, momentum transfer doesn't work that way, objects do not transfer disproportionate momentum. The pebble hit by a mountain moving 100 miles an hour is the same as a stationary mountain being hit by a pebble moving 100 miles an hour, it can absorb a maximum of twice it's momentum on impact, allowing it, if perfectly elastic, to leave in the opposite direction with the same speed.

Define "disproportionate." Transferred energy is all we are considering, after all, and how much particles struck re-emit vs. assume as their own momentum. A mountain striking a pebble (alone) will not transfer all momentum and stop dead, but HOWEVER much it transfers is all that matters to WHATEVER the pebble does (whether re-emitting it as light, assuming it as momentum of its own or "other.") A relatively large amount of momentum transferred to a low mass high density pebble in a vacuum would become momentum of its own. That it could only absorb a relatively small amount of the mountains momentum (i.e. "cannot absorb or emit much energy in the first place") is just one reason. Having little stationary inertia to overcome or other nearby matter to absorb ITS momentum on collision are two more.
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View original postAbsent potential energy kinetic is the only kind left, yes? And still practically useless for the reason you state. It cannot be random AND uniform, by definition though: If random it is uneven; if non-random, even. Then again, that really depends on space, which depends on gravity, which may not even operate at heat death. I guess the issue is what we specify by "disorder." I take your larger point though, and do not dispute it.

Something can be uniformly random, that's how gases in a room function. Two rooms, touching each other, each 200 and 300 kelvin respectively, can not have work done inside them, they are uniformly random, if I open the gate between them though I can accomplish work during the heat flow as they attempt to become a single uniformly random object at 250 k. If I'm using that work to turn a flywheel then they will equalize lower, maybe 240 K, slowly rising to 250 k as the flywheel encounters drag and friction and slows down, producing heat in the process.

"Uniformly random"=/="random and uniform:" The adverb modifies the adjective; they do not both modify the noun. I wrote a long analysis of probability before concluding I am likely arguing semantics: Energy would be uniformly distributed among MATTER (because all matter would be in thermal equilibrium with itself,) but not SPACE (because matter would be randomly distributed.) There would be pockets of matter, and thus of energy (which would thus be nonuniformly distributed in the universe) but it could do no work on more rarefied matter anywhere else (or vice versa,) because in thermal equilibrium with it. Good enough? Or is the contention Kinetic Theory must eventually distribute matter uniformly? If so, fine, but that is nonrandom.
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View original post"Zen" and "meaningless" go hand in hand, yes, hence the koans. Finite or not I am unsure we were ever meant to answer every question, else it would tend to fatalist apathy, intellectual Alexanders not so much weeping as shrugging that we had no more worlds to conquer (not that that old legend holds more truth than most.)

Yes, but the nice thing about answering "How does momentum transfer work?" as opposed to "If a tree falls in the woods..." is that the former lets you build engines to move things and make electricity.

Yes, but the nice thing about "if a tree falls in the woods..." is it gives bulding engines to move things and make electricity MEANING (and thus motive, pardon the pun.) Before founding physics Aritotle himself declared, early in his Metaphysics, abstract knowledge the noblest kind, because "scientia gratia scientiae" rather than as means to end. Or in this context, Newtons inspiration for the law of universal gravitation was not an ambitious desire to journey to the moon, but simply seeing an apple fall to earth and demanding, "wtf did THAT happen?!"
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This message last edited by Joel on 16/08/2013 at 07:39:01 AM
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