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Meh, porn predates civilization; its novelty has faded. Joel Send a noteboard - 13/08/2013 06:36:13 AM

Few human artifacts are older and more widely distributed than statues of bare large-breasted women. In nearly 10,000 years, learning about the birds and the bees is about the ONLY thing accomplished by humans physiologically indistinguishable from us; they did not even manage the most basic metalworking (and I do not mean metallurgy either; even polishing and sharpening copper ore was beyond them.)


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View original post"Cosmology takes GUTs," and explorers are, by definition, the people who traverse regions marked "here there be dragons." I think it was Planck whose college advisors told him to go into something other than physics because all the big questions had been answered and nothing remained but fleshing out the details, but God and the devil both dwell in those details. "Hazy, troublesome, etc." strikes me as another way of saying, "presents fundamental paradoxes that are either currently insoluble, admit no currently verifiable solutions, or both." Again, wave/particle duality was once considered an all but trivial artifact; a century and several new disciplines later we STILL lack a completely satisfactory reconciliation, but have tremendously advanced our understanding of matter, energy and space looking.

A lot of the stories of how scientists thought everything would soon be solved are just that... stories. Sort of a variation on the Columbus/flat Geocentric/stupid concepts mentioned before. I've heard it said that it was said but I've never come across writings of a scientist form turn of the century era that said anything of the sort. I'm not sure who/when considered wave/particle duality a trivial thing either.

Well, if memory serves it was something I heard on PBS years ago; I cannot source it (could not even remember whether Planck was the physicist mentioned.) Yet that was not the first time I heard a reliable reference claim the physics consensus at the turn of the last century was that the science was all but "complete." Wave/particle duality itself was not trivial, but it seems to have been the Higgs of its day, at least until Rutherford, Thompson and the Curies arrived; the problem, as is so often the case in physics, is that discovering the "answer" (to the extent we ever did) just spawned a lot more even more complex questions.
View original post"Hazy, troublesome, etc" is just what I said it was, General Relativity covers black holes fine, Quantum Mechanics does so less well, as mentioned Quantum Gravity etc present serious concerns and some apparent paradoxes.

That was my point: Paradoxes tend to be hazy and troublesome, but their resolutions are often (and understandably) revolutionary. It seems save to say that resolving the contradictions between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics will be no less earthshattering than resolving the contradictions between the theory of light-as-wave and light-as-particle. Hopefuly we can come up with something a bit more precise and satisfying than "both."
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View original postCommentary aside, a follow up question to the follow up question: WHY is Hawking Radiation inversely proportional to mass? Understand, I do not dispute that it is, I am just curious whether the mechanism necessarily requires that if gravitons were produced by a similar mechanism they must be similarly inversely proportional. It often seems to me gravity is at odds with the other fundamental forces, tending to contract what they expand, acting to bring to rest what they set in motion; I strongly suspect it is not so much that there is no such thing as "anti-gravity" so much as that the unification of the other fundamental forces is it. If (and I realize it is a big "if" ) that supposition is valid it seems conceivable that a process minimizing kinetic energy might maximize gravity (in a sense, black holes do just that.)

Why is Hawking Radiation inversely proportional to the square of mass? I think I called it cube last time, it's lifetime that goes as cube of mass, power is inverse square. It's totally unrelated to gravity except as an ultimate power source for the heat. Anyway, black holes have temperatures, bigger ones are colder. Double a black holes mass and you double its radius, quadruple it surface area, and get 8 times the volume. And skipping some steps, A black hole's temperature is inverse to its own mass. Double Mass, half temperature. You can run through the math on <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation">wikipedia</a>, it's mostly algebra.

Yeah, I saw that; that is, um, a lot of Greek. I am enough of a layman that saying something "is Rindler in terms of tau=t/4M and rho=2u" tells me very little. I can see how we end up with an equation where T is equal to a formula with M in the denominator, but that does not explain the mechanics in operation. It only relates to temperature (i.e. elctromagnetic radiation) though, so the same relationship would not necessarily follow for some kind of stimulated graviton emission, which one would expect to be proportional to mass to at least some degree. It was just a spur of the moment notion though, spitballing; I am certainly not married to it, but am curious about the nuts and bolts (even if I may not have the math to follow them.)
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View original postI do not propose black holes could emit gravitons IDENTICALLY to the way they emit Hawking Radiation (which, as I understand it, is an oversimplification anyway; consuming one product of virtual particle decay before it can recombine with the more distant product is not "emission," per se.) I have in mind tidal forces shredding objects, down to the subatomic, subnuclear, level, until destroying the very particles with which gravitons interact, leaving gravitons nowhere to go except into the black hole or out to space seeking some other purchase. Since their interaction is unlimited and always attractive, it would effectively draw objects toward the black hole, and the larger the black hole the greater the number of objects tidal forces would destroy, expelling more gravitons (again, from the objects, not the black hole itself.)

Well virtually particles don't get blocked the way you're thinking, if they got absorbed by interaction that way then having an object between you and them should mean less gravity then if nothing was in the way which obviously isn't the case.

I was not thinking of them being blocked so much as the possibility dissolution of a (relatively) larger object (not necessarily by the black holes action) might generate gravitons the same way pair production yields electrons/positrons and the like: It is not that photons are COMPOSED of either or both, but the energy lost cannot truly be "lost" and is sufficient to produce the pair, so it goes there. Although, when I think about it that way (i.e. in quantum and thermodynamic terms) it amounts to indirectly positing antigravity, and since that seems literal science "fiction" I do not want to go there.
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View original postThe whole concept of gravitons perplexes me, since I always took it for granted all matter exerts gravity: Does that include gravitons themselves? If so, what is the medium? Obviously not a graviton, unless it is self propagating like I have suggested photons may be. Not to mention the fact gravitons are every bit as necessary and hypothetical as the Higgs boson is (or was,) but practically impossible to detect with the LHC or anything else. They seem far more deserving of the "God particle" title, especially since the Higgs was only the Standard Models last unverified particle because the Standard Model deliberately excludes gravity from consideration. It is a bit like a cartographer declaring, "I have mapped the entire universe," on the grounds of defining everything outside the Solar system as "not part of the universe."

Gravitons perplex everyone, I wouldn't worry over it much. We don't know if they exert gravity, photons do since electrical fields can, anything containing energy probably does but gravitons may be an exception.

As long as it is not an arbitrary one. It is very odd to think of matter without gravity though; anything, really, given equivalency. Gravity seems fundamental in a way that goes much deeper than either Newton or Einstein. It certainly intrigues me more than the Higgs "completing" the Standard Model; a Standard Model without a graviton does not feel all that complete, just another reminder quantum and relativity remain unreconciled.
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View original postIf reduced to Brownian motion though that would also tend to resolve the paradox: Intervening matter struck by incoming photons is also struck by OUTGOING photons so the latter effectively reflect the former (even if it is technically a case of intervening matter absorbing both and emitting new photons with velocities opposite that of the first two.) Of course, for that to work energy emission from and toward the center must be equal, which it obviously would not be in our uniformly distributed onion, but otherwise the far greater incoming energy would not be offset by outgoing energy and the intervening matter would have a net momentum preventing some incoming energys transmission to the core: No core radiation bombardment.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.

Essentially that even Brownian motion would not hold intervening particles at or even near kinetic equilibrium, because our hypothetical onions volume dictates "rimward" energy sources will always greatly outnumber "coreward" ones. Therefore the intervening matter could and would absorb the difference and move about, rather than being locked in place and reemitting it toward the core. It will still radiate the difference "minus whatever small amount is going into momentum," but that "small amount" ought to be relatively LARGE for low densities (like, say, the interstellar medium.) The low mass and surface area does not allow much energy absortion per unit volume in the first place, and the low mass and negligible drag means it does not take much of it to get them moving, and every erg going to motion is not re-emitted. There is no core radiation bombardment because the exces all goes to motion, if only motion of very rarefied matter.
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View original postIt was my understanding that is essentially the Second Law of Thermodynamics' consequence: Gradual but inevitable conversion of kinetic energy to potential energy until universal heat death. There the graviton again rears its ugly hypothetical head, forcing us to consider whether that produces a truly static universe or the graviton somehow transcends the Second Law in a Big Crunch. Accelerated expansions Dark Energy only complicates rather than resolves that question.

No, the type of energy is basically irrelevant, but 'heat' is essentially random kinetic energy not potential and that includes photons from blackbody radiation occurring at or under the Universe's temperature. It's the gradual but inevitable conversion of patterned objects into unpatterned ones, or that form which no work can be extracted.

Right, the kinetic energy is practically (if not technically) nil, because so diffuse nothing can be done with it. Sorry, I sloppily said, "potential energy," instead of "matter," but of course the potential energy of matter at that point will be ACTUALLY rather than PRACTICALLY zero (that is kind of the point.)
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View original postThe thing is, science, especially prior to the modern era, rarely addresses truly novel questions, or those for which no potential answer has been proposed: It usually addresses long standing questions by exposing the deficiencies of accepted answers and proposing new ones that remove those deficiencies.

Granted that is less so in the century or so since science found so many rigorous, verified and widely accepted answers to so many old questions; today it is increasingly tasked with resolving the conflicts and failings of its own improved answers rather than previous ones of older disciplines. Yet the process remains unchanged; we can explore no region before aware of its existence. Science has simply progressed from correcting/clarifying errors of other disciplines to correcting/clarifying its own. It is more often refinement and verification than true discovery; Plancks advisors had that part right, but vastly underestimated its import.


I took roughly 400 years to answer Olber's Paradox, more than half of them passing before it even got named that. One less than a century old isn't one I'm going to elevate to unsolvable, it's not something like
"Is there a God?" or "Is this all a dream?" where one can not conceive of a means of answering the question with certainty and we've not been beating on the problem very long.

I never said it was insoluble, only that the solution is apt to be revolutionary, the more so the longer it eludes us, since we can only find it by continually increasing our understanding. Our understandings expansion is only possible in its paradoxes and frontiers. Maybe that is why we can never answer all questions: We could no longer ask them if we did.
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This message last edited by Joel on 13/08/2013 at 09:18:19 AM
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Meh, porn predates civilization; its novelty has faded. - 13/08/2013 06:36:13 AM 458 Views
I think most people would disagree - 13/08/2013 07:09:38 AM 1992 Views
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