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Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM
Heroes should certainly be larger than life, hence GURPS PCs are 100 point characters rather than the 25 points considered average. However, if they (or their players) alter space and time at will that is not "triumphing against all odds," but against NO odds, automatically.


Thankfully nobody ever suggested anything like that. Well, some probably did, actually. And I do remember that Mage: The Ascension sounded interesting, for a White Wolf game. But that's certainly not the case in D&D. You have built up an encounter where a 10th level character faces 12 creatures that have a 1/4 Challenge Rating. It is absurd to blame the system because you've designed an unchallenging encounter that is, by the metric of that very system you're criticising, unchallenging.

Heroic characters should have exceptional, but still limited, abilities. They should be capable of amazing acts and accomplishments, yet within a fixed framework, because that is what makes the achievements impressive, memorable and therefore FUN. If characters are nigh-omnipotent demigods, what is the point?


I suspect you've been playing the game wrong. I've been killing "nigh-omnipotent demigods" for three Editions now, and this despite never setting out with the intent to kill anyone.

Baldurs Gate actuall offers a good example: The battle in the Iron Thrones HQ, or even those in their Cloakwood mines, provided me far more challenges, thus fun, thus lasting memories, than bumrushing dragons and vampires in SoA. I have almost NO memory of ToB, because by the time I reached it my characters were all so powerful they destroyed pretty much all the bosses instantly, from start to finish. One of my best memories of the series was the first run through Durlags Tower, because no combination of low saves, AC and THAC0 allows you to short circuit a comples series of traps and puzzles (which it seemed like Bioware largely phoned in for SoA and ToB, though the Big Metal Unit was a nice bonus for anyone who played the whole series and could find all the components.)


Neither of those encounters were particularly memorable to me. I've said below that Baldur's Gate is a very easy game, and that's without making six min/maxed characters as you do. Those few times I've been seriously screwed in the game are:

The encounter with that mage on the steps of the Friendly Arm Inn, and that just boils down to the fact that his high-level Magic Missile will pretty much always instantly kill any level 1 character, so it comes down to whether I can interrupt his Mirror Image spell, kill all his Mirror Images before he casts the Magic Missile, or hit him with a Sleep/Charm spell.

The Vampire attack early in Shadows of Amn, and that's not so much that the encounter is difficult, but rather that I had wasted so much time travelling around Athkatla that when they attacked, I had only one weapon capable of hurting them, and using magic on them would only cause Cowled Wizards to pop up and join the Vampires.

Actually, Greywolf murdered me a ton the first time I played, too.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
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Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition: Edit 2 with added video & launch delay - 07/09/2012 09:48:16 PM 2564 Views
!!!!! - 07/09/2012 10:49:47 PM 1250 Views
are they created kindly or cruelly? - 08/09/2012 05:34:36 PM 1209 Views
Lol! Realistically, if exaggerated to heroic levels. - 09/09/2012 07:56:32 PM 1230 Views
I played the hell out of BG2, but only played BG1 once - 08/09/2012 06:07:15 AM 1341 Views
BGI is a lot more fun because a lot more challenging, IMHO. - 08/09/2012 02:33:17 PM 1232 Views
*revelation* - 08/09/2012 05:45:28 PM 1175 Views
fireballs are so epic in BG1 - 08/09/2012 05:41:34 PM 1221 Views
I disagree about it being the only good third level spell;lighting bolt and haste are also excellent - 08/09/2012 06:26:08 PM 1307 Views
Yeah, I loved Lightning Bolt. - 08/09/2012 06:44:59 PM 1157 Views
it was such a liability - 08/09/2012 07:11:36 PM 1197 Views
Bouncing is what makes lightning bolts great, because you get to hit people more than once. - 08/09/2012 08:59:10 PM 1141 Views
There's an unfortunate Wizard in the Firewine Bridge Ruins... - 09/09/2012 12:58:18 AM 1227 Views
Oops. - 09/09/2012 01:43:23 AM 1213 Views
that's why BG1 was so awesome. exploration=rewards - 09/09/2012 09:09:22 AM 1201 Views
Yeah, got to keep one of each on hand. - 08/09/2012 08:57:31 PM 1112 Views
Multi-player was actually pretty simple if you just used it to create your whole party. - 08/09/2012 02:19:35 PM 1186 Views
well yeah, because there was no connection to figure out - 08/09/2012 06:59:49 PM 1308 Views
Right; I was never a big multiplayer fan anyway, but customized parties were nice - 08/09/2012 08:53:45 PM 1312 Views
Where's the fun in having a customized party and losing all the character interaction, though? - 09/09/2012 04:03:10 PM 1261 Views
I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 09/09/2012 04:45:12 PM 1378 Views
Re: I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 10/09/2012 01:23:44 PM 1226 Views
Agreed. - 11/09/2012 07:01:07 PM 1256 Views
Suggestion since you're not using the NPCs anyway... - 15/09/2012 11:34:28 PM 1281 Views
That is a good thought; I never played IWD. - 16/09/2012 03:31:01 AM 1196 Views
Where did you think I just got it? - 16/09/2012 04:39:43 PM 1144 Views
How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 06:57:19 PM 1140 Views
Re: How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 11:08:09 PM 1328 Views
I still like GURPS' character points best. - 17/09/2012 11:40:12 PM 1182 Views
Heh, I'm not surprised. - 18/09/2012 01:47:55 AM 1186 Views
If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes. - 18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM 1388 Views
I've never played GURPS, so I don't know how its system works. - 18/09/2012 03:32:21 PM 1266 Views
I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM 1612 Views
Re: I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 08:35:24 AM 1224 Views
It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 19/09/2012 10:58:31 PM 1275 Views
Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM 1202 Views
AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM 1495 Views
Re: AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 07:03:39 AM 1187 Views
Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 08:33:23 AM 1398 Views
Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM 1318 Views
My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 01:23:21 AM 1414 Views
Re: My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM 1418 Views
I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 05:16:49 AM 1228 Views
Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM 1347 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 08:12:05 AM 1373 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM 1232 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 10:26:16 AM 1848 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 05:23:13 PM 1171 Views
I can't speak for IWD I, but II is okay on the story front so far. - 18/09/2012 06:36:16 PM 1137 Views
Nah, IWD I barely had any story at all. - 18/09/2012 08:16:49 PM 1067 Views
agreed - 19/09/2012 09:42:28 AM 1337 Views
I've still only played about 4 hours of BG1 - 08/09/2012 03:59:49 PM 1233 Views
If you have not yet, you should look into the Weidu mods. - 08/09/2012 06:12:20 PM 1125 Views
But what's the point in playing the game if you don't use the NPCs? - 08/09/2012 06:47:38 PM 1140 Views
agreed the NPCs are half the fun - 08/09/2012 07:02:22 PM 1170 Views
Not having a bunch of potentially useful but AI ruined incompetents constantly fumbling. - 08/09/2012 08:55:53 PM 1259 Views
Yeah, but optimising the whole group sounds ridiculously easy. - 09/09/2012 01:03:51 AM 1148 Views
Well, there are always mods for that. - 09/09/2012 01:37:42 AM 1093 Views
For talking to pretty much anyone, really. - 09/09/2012 03:20:29 AM 1180 Views
True. - 09/09/2012 03:46:24 AM 1185 Views
Well, I usually don't have thieves in my party. - 09/09/2012 04:56:21 AM 1130 Views
there wasn't a good enough thief option in bg2/ToB - 09/09/2012 09:15:21 AM 1091 Views
I noticed that also; another argument for creating a party via MP even if you move it back to SP. - 09/09/2012 11:45:12 PM 1200 Views
storyline man! - 10/09/2012 01:43:51 PM 1157 Views
I make my OWN storyline. - 10/09/2012 06:35:43 PM 1229 Views
Just how many thieves do you even need? - 10/09/2012 06:22:58 PM 1168 Views
The stealth skills come in very handy though. - 09/09/2012 04:11:40 PM 1167 Views
Any suggested parties for beginners? *NM* - 10/09/2012 01:13:38 AM 657 Views
I plan to do custom characters for the other 6 slots - 10/09/2012 01:42:41 AM 1140 Views
There are no "other" six slots - there are six slots, period. - 10/09/2012 06:24:33 PM 1116 Views
well, absolute standard would be: - 10/09/2012 01:35:15 PM 1206 Views
My own recommendation would be: - 10/09/2012 07:36:04 PM 1155 Views
I am completely stoked about it. - 10/09/2012 07:07:09 PM 1203 Views
TotSC made BGI a LOT more fun. - 10/09/2012 07:46:03 PM 1094 Views
all the kits/races/dual wielding etc will be available in bgee - 11/09/2012 09:02:35 AM 1128 Views
Ah; nice. - 11/09/2012 06:57:14 PM 1234 Views
i'm not sure they were even state of the art at the time - 12/09/2012 09:26:05 AM 1135 Views
Remember, BGI was released only about two years after Doom. - 13/09/2012 12:05:11 AM 1203 Views
If by "two" you mean "five," then yes. DOOM was released in 1993. - 13/09/2012 03:22:58 PM 1172 Views
Ah, 1998. The golden year. Ocarina of Time. Starcraft. Half-Life. *NM* - 13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM 670 Views
Can't believe I forgot about HALF-LIFE. *NM* - 13/09/2012 09:06:55 PM 655 Views
That just reminds me of how sad it is that StarCraft died this year . *NM* - 13/09/2012 11:55:28 PM 646 Views
I don't mind the graphics in it - 12/09/2012 04:38:47 PM 1194 Views
Re: I don't mind the graphics in it - 13/09/2012 01:55:24 AM 1113 Views
I'm going to ask this here rather than start a new topic as its somewhat related. - 10/09/2012 07:42:32 PM 1143 Views
I remember Wisdom being important - 14/09/2012 04:28:23 AM 1083 Views
And it now has been delayed till Nov *NM* - 15/09/2012 03:52:41 AM 644 Views
On another note, shame on all of you for not telling me Jon Irenicus is Ra's Al Ghul - 15/09/2012 04:19:21 AM 1179 Views
Among many many others. - 17/09/2012 06:45:33 PM 1144 Views

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