Active Users:432 Time:05/05/2024 11:24:15 AM
Alright, I did miss that point. Legolas Send a noteboard - 29/05/2017 07:33:36 PM

View original postIt's not about perspective. It's about the fact that this mythical commonality that does not in fact exist is a mask for the complete and utter lack of national identity. We say "Arab World" when a rural Moroccan Berber Sunni has almost nothing in common with a Damascene Alawi. Yet the myth is there, and the myth itself is probably inhibiting any sense of common purpose or shared destiny. It would be as if Spaniards, French and Italians called themselves "Roman" and failed to create unified states as a result (and actually, that pretty much happened in Italy for the longest time, with the predictable consequences).

Except that many of them did create separate states - places like Morocco, Algeria, Oman, etc. have been more or less autonomous or officially independent for many centuries and up to a thousand years. It's one thing if you're talking about Iraq and Syria, or even Saudi Arabia and Jordan, states in which several separate regional identities were combined into one (and I think both friends and enemies would agree that the Palestinian nation is also a rather recent phenomenon, mostly shaped in the first half of the 20th century). But others have a much older national identity, they just have the wider Arab identity in addition to that. Sort of like the relations between the various Spanish-speaking Latin-American countries. Not that that stops them from having minorities which may be in opposition to this national identity.
View original postThe sooner the entire region starts to recognize the realities, the sooner they will form states based on common interest. Aside from the fact that ISIS is a horrendous group, the geographical area that it controlled fell to it quickly for a reason - the Sunni regions of Iraq and Syria had more in common with one another than they did with their "countrymen". The Upper Mesopotamian geographical area has been distinct since they time of the Assyrians and makes a much more logical grouping than Iraq and Syria do. Lower Mesopotamia would be a Shiite state, the mountains of Kurdistan would be a state, and the Levantine coast would be a state.

I can agree with some of that, and certainly the borders of Syria and Iraq and Jordan are pretty arbitrary. I just think you're too black and white about it. Sunnis and Shias have a long history of violent clashes, but so did Catholics and Protestants, once, and in both cases it's often ambiguous whether the religious differences were the actual reason for a war or just a pretext. It doesn't mean that a nation with significant numbers of both is necessarily doomed to failure, it's just a question of political leadership choosing to reconcile, or to divide and conquer. The Kurds could have had their state already at Sevres, and looking at the situation today, it makes sense to give them one, but some of the four nations sharing 'Kurdistan' are or at one point were making decent steps towards a solution involving mere cultural autonomy within the existing borders. To take the most obvious example, Erdogan's Turkey, it's not some kind of historical inevitability that he went back on the warpath and ruined the chances of a lasting peaceful solution for Turkish Kurdistan (in the short term, at least). It's the result of political choices that he and others made, and for which they should be held accountable. Same thing with Assad's and Saddam's divide and conquer tactics in which they played off Sunnites against Shi'ites and Arabs against Kurds in order to maintain their power.
Reply to message
Terrible thing in Manchester last night. - 23/05/2017 03:34:11 PM 994 Views
Pogroms - 23/05/2017 04:29:06 PM 416 Views
You can't stop psychos from doing psychopathic things. - 23/05/2017 05:40:15 PM 376 Views
I'm not sure i understand. - 23/05/2017 05:54:33 PM 394 Views
That's a quite obtuse answer - 23/05/2017 08:34:20 PM 406 Views
Hiding? - 23/05/2017 08:58:11 PM 441 Views
What do you mean, exactly, by "stop making ourselves targets" then? - 23/05/2017 09:47:43 PM 381 Views
First off, we agree completely on one thing - 23/05/2017 10:51:22 PM 418 Views
What hasn't been consistent about our foreign policy in that region? - 23/05/2017 11:13:57 PM 453 Views
I thought it was obvious that I didn't mean consistently shit. - 23/05/2017 11:36:58 PM 430 Views
It's always about us, then, isn't it? - 24/05/2017 02:34:52 AM 397 Views
For me, it is. - 24/05/2017 07:49:03 AM 398 Views
Don't forget getting an education if you are female *NM* - 23/05/2017 09:38:26 PM 229 Views
They might have a point with that one. I haven't seen much value from it. - 23/05/2017 09:53:19 PM 350 Views
You are going to get rocks thrown at you *NM* - 23/05/2017 10:29:45 PM 201 Views
There aren't many left who would bother. *NM* - 23/05/2017 10:52:14 PM 220 Views
Me and the jihadis - victory by sticking around! *NM* - 24/05/2017 11:11:35 AM 221 Views
Picking a concert that would be mostly teenage girls makes it extra disgusting *NM* - 23/05/2017 09:37:25 PM 219 Views
Not really. It's a logical extension of the whole rationale. - 23/05/2017 09:50:30 PM 430 Views
He said 'extra disgusting'. Not 'less logical'. *NM* - 23/05/2017 10:29:21 PM 235 Views
I am not sure logic applies to the issue. - 23/05/2017 10:41:32 PM 352 Views
I can see that - 24/05/2017 11:47:59 AM 402 Views
It makes me wonder about the attacker - 23/05/2017 11:00:40 PM 396 Views
I wonder about what these people sea in a good who wants this kind of thing - 24/05/2017 05:58:25 PM 382 Views
It really does. That shit makes the blood boil. *NM* - 24/05/2017 05:23:33 PM 241 Views
Isis Shmisis. Daesh is just the end result of the radicalization of many Muslims. - 23/05/2017 11:58:42 PM 373 Views
Blaming the Ottomans, while largely correct, is less satisfying to them. - 24/05/2017 03:21:14 AM 408 Views
There's lots of nationalist feeling, surely. - 24/05/2017 06:48:59 PM 390 Views
Your errors are legion here. - 24/05/2017 10:03:53 PM 378 Views
Really? I see precisely one point which, according to you, is a factual error. - 26/05/2017 11:41:00 PM 408 Views
You're not looking very hard, then - 27/05/2017 03:23:36 PM 466 Views
At this point we're just arguing about perspective, seems to me. - 28/05/2017 07:11:55 PM 525 Views
No, I think that you're missing the point - 28/05/2017 09:49:34 PM 302 Views
Alright, I did miss that point. - 29/05/2017 07:33:36 PM 359 Views
You can't do anything - 24/05/2017 05:00:31 PM 356 Views
Be honest. We both know I am a major hardass and you like it. *NM* - 24/05/2017 05:19:21 PM 198 Views
Oh I do - 25/05/2017 10:27:08 AM 449 Views
My opinion? We (USA) should either bomb ISIS into oblivion or back off and let them kill each other *NM* - 24/05/2017 05:38:37 PM 247 Views
When I see those girl's faces and think about how easily it could be my 11 year old daughter - 24/05/2017 05:53:01 PM 404 Views
I would prefer to annihilate them, if possible, without boots on the ground. - 24/05/2017 06:03:49 PM 357 Views
I admit my reaction is as much emotional as rational but boots may be needed - 24/05/2017 06:37:51 PM 454 Views
Are you serious? - 28/05/2017 09:56:07 PM 312 Views
There is no tool for not allowing citizens back in the country - 29/05/2017 10:11:42 PM 335 Views
Re: There is no tool for not allowing citizens back in the country *NM* - 29/05/2017 10:11:52 PM 221 Views
Wow, talk about mission creep hitting after just one (incoherent) message - 30/05/2017 03:07:46 PM 571 Views
Speak for yourself. - 30/05/2017 06:57:16 PM 394 Views
You have thus argued for the death of education. - 31/05/2017 02:51:11 PM 389 Views
No, I've argued for substance over form. - 31/05/2017 07:07:28 PM 387 Views
Well, fuck you too then - 02/06/2017 01:43:47 AM 558 Views
Tom, he's dyslexic. Stop being a dick. - 02/06/2017 09:37:27 AM 332 Views
I'm such a n00b *NM* - 24/05/2017 06:03:50 PM 212 Views

Reply to Message