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Re: I'll chew... Legolas Send a noteboard - 15/08/2023 11:32:12 PM

View original postWell, as I said, they seem to share a root of being a type of body dysmorphia. Perhaps you disagree, and that's fine. I don't claim this as known fact, but simply an association that I (and others) am making. Though I doubt there is enough evidence to say one way or the other, and we'll have to agree to disagree. Welcome to complex systems

View original postYou stated that one is rational enough. I'd ask that you say more on that, as I don't understand where the distinction is. I assume you are referring to transgender individuals? Can I assume you are basing this on the distinction between sex and gender, with gender being socially inculcated behavioral tendencies?

I'm going to ask you to read my reply to Tyr for more detail on that, but basically, desiring the amputation of e.g. your hand is completely irrational - it would leave you worse off without any gain that would make sense to anyone else. Desiring to belong to another gender than the one you were born with, or assigned at birth, is a rational enough desire. In the past, it was an impossible desire, or at least all one could really do was to transition socially without any hormone treatment or surgery, but nowadays medical science allows it, though still imperfectly and at a cost, so it makes sense for it to be on the table.
View original postI am glad to hear you say this. And I completely agree with you in theory. Unfortunately, people have been fired, children pulled into communist style struggle sessions, for expressing views similar to mine. And there's no doubt that similar atrocities are committed the other way as well.

View original postRegardless, it is not so clean-cut as "you have your opinions and I have mine, and yet we'll live together and do just fine." I wish it were...

True, it has become a big culture war issue.
View original postChesterton's Fence is a thought experiment highlighting the importance of reflecting on what is already in place before making changes. And there are a couple of Chesterton's Fences to consider with this issue.


View original postThe second fence relates the view that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, which has been the common view up until recently. Society removing this "fence" for the view that it is normal opens up a floodgate of issues, with which we are only seeing the beginnings of; some examples of this are the division of mens and womens sports, which bathrooms are acceptable to use, and whether gender-affirming care is appropriate for underage people.

I discussed some of this above as well - you can call gender dysphoria a mental disorder in some ways, but with the key difference that it's a disorder which can be resolved very simply (simply, as opposed to easily), by giving the patients what they're asking for, and as discussed above the thing they're asking for is rational enough, unlike the BIID.

None of the issues that you refer to here and in the next paragraph are so big as to make one reconsider providing gender-affirming care at all. And the controversies surrounding them would be a lot less vehement if those issues were debated purely on their own merits, without gender-affirming care as a whole being put into question every time.

For instance, in the case of teenagers with gender dysphoria who disagree with their parents on the course to pursue, or who push doctors to go faster/further than the doctors are comfortable with, both the teenagers themselves and trans activists viewing their cases from the outside may seem a bit paranoid and always assume that anyone who seems unconvinced or wants to slow things down is a closet transphobe who doesn't think gender-affirming care should be allowed for anyone - because they've seen so many times that this was the case, and because many of the people talking the loudest on the topic do in fact have that position. But still they're also wrong in many cases, and that in turn also alienates people who aren't actually against gender-affirming care in general but do have understandable concerns about the extreme increase in the numbers of trans teenagers in recent years and about what that suggests about the role of social influence as opposed to innate desires.

View original postAnd the implications gain in intensity with time. Will insurance companies be forced to accept gender-affirming care as covered medical procedures? Are parents of a child with gender dysphoria who refuse to pursue gender-affirming care committing abuse and lose the right to their children?


View original postAll of this is sitting on a house of cards of fairly shaky science and fairly loud activists, as I see it.

Fair - but as I mentioned, if the basic premise of gender-affirming care were more widely accepted, both sides could calm down about the various related controversies.


View original postExcept that we aren't being careful, by and large. Society is being inundated with these ideas, which are being transmitted in government policies, medical practices, and educational institutions. Children are being taught (in some cases) by activist teachers to come out of the closet to them, and keep secrets from their parents. Some countries and some US States allow for underage kids to seek gender-affirming care without consent from their parents. And I can certainly understand and empathize with the sentiment that traditional parents would not be on board with these radical views. But it is not very difficult to see how all of this can be exploited by bad actors, both in the medical field as well as individuals seeking validation, not to mention the swath of confused and impressionable youths who get caught up in the cultural tornado and end up with consequences their minds were too underdeveloped to comprehend.

In practice, despite the scare stories and despite what the teenagers in question might want, gender-affirming care isn't generally being rushed or provided easily to whoever shows up asking for it. But yeah, there's a big difference between parents who want to slow things down and prevent their children from rushing into a major life decision like that, or parents who oppose the whole thing on principle and are never going to approve, regardless of how long the choice is considered or what arguments their children or the doctors offer. In the second case, you won't be surprised that I'd be fine with them proceeding without parental consent that'll never come.
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“Can you imagine our reading that James Madison or Thomas Jefferson tried to overthrow the gov't?" - 03/08/2023 09:02:48 PM 659 Views
I'm curious as to your point in posting this. - 04/08/2023 03:17:48 AM 123 Views
The point is that these uneducated dumbass race-baiters dare to lecture us - 04/08/2023 05:33:36 PM 119 Views
. . . - 05/08/2023 02:14:20 PM 127 Views
You're entitled to your optimistic view - 05/08/2023 04:24:33 PM 112 Views
You only think your view is realistic because you haven't studied enough history. - 06/08/2023 04:04:34 PM 111 Views
You're entitled to your optimistic view. *NM* - 06/08/2023 09:18:39 PM 48 Views
Not only is this statistically incorrect, it's historically incorrect. - 08/08/2023 11:35:42 PM 101 Views
Sigh, I understand that it's hard to grasp these days, with our medical miracles, - 14/08/2023 05:52:01 PM 102 Views
Disease is counted as part of wartime casualties. - 14/08/2023 08:17:53 PM 97 Views
And Covid killed 1000000 Americans lol - 14/08/2023 09:49:02 PM 91 Views
I don't think so - 07/08/2023 01:54:05 PM 136 Views
These facts would cause you to be denounced as a "putinite fascist"... - 07/08/2023 05:45:05 PM 108 Views
Well, of course it's going to pass - 07/08/2023 06:55:12 PM 115 Views
Tom, you are being far too reasonable. That doesn’t fly in 2023! *NM* - 08/08/2023 12:22:49 AM 55 Views
He is, which is why, I think, he is wrong. *NM* - 08/08/2023 10:18:32 PM 53 Views
I just can't buy that the political and academic class will give up their grip so easily. - 08/08/2023 05:49:58 PM 93 Views
Academics have been pro Marxism for over 100 years. It's nothing new. *NM* - 08/08/2023 05:59:55 PM 51 Views
Maybe. But they've never been this spiteful or spoiled before. - 09/08/2023 01:29:30 PM 92 Views
No, they only recruited students to spy for the Soviets *NM* - 14/08/2023 06:18:58 PM 49 Views
Yes. They do that now, too. Except it's the Chinese. *NM* - 14/08/2023 09:51:37 PM 51 Views
Do you have sources for that 'far more conservative and far more religious' claim? - 09/08/2023 07:35:50 PM 105 Views
In regards to more conservative, - 09/08/2023 08:35:03 PM 111 Views
I side with Greg and Tom in this discussion. - 08/08/2023 05:57:54 PM 108 Views
I don't suppose linking medical articles is going to help too much here, but... - 08/08/2023 11:28:05 PM 108 Views
Elizabeth, you know I have a non binary grandchild. - 09/08/2023 01:22:32 AM 107 Views
Yeah, I know, I just think that the statistics are dangerous. - 09/08/2023 04:36:40 AM 104 Views
Respectfully, do you truly believe this? - 09/08/2023 05:42:31 PM 108 Views
I'll bite... - 09/08/2023 06:39:46 PM 102 Views
Thanks. <3 *NM* - 09/08/2023 08:27:13 PM 52 Views
Your thoughts - 11/08/2023 04:14:37 PM 95 Views
Yes, that's true. - 11/08/2023 06:11:49 PM 99 Views
Re: Yes, that's true. - 12/08/2023 04:25:28 PM 95 Views
This is not bait, I am legitimately trying to understand. And if I understand correctly... - 11/08/2023 05:17:02 PM 98 Views
As I said, it wasn't intended as perfect analogy - it's about how much say should children have. - 11/08/2023 06:44:33 PM 102 Views
No, seriously, only the last one was intended as parody. And I'd like an explanation. - 14/08/2023 05:43:37 PM 91 Views
There aren't a lot of people committing suicide over their teeth coming in. - 14/08/2023 08:21:29 PM 89 Views
Indeed. - 14/08/2023 09:50:53 PM 93 Views
Re: No, seriously, only the last one was intended as parody. And I'd like an explanation. - 15/08/2023 04:14:57 PM 99 Views
See, you're willing to discuss, instead of insult. Others on this board might take note. - 17/08/2023 05:18:39 PM 95 Views
Yeah, well, I have the luxury of an outsider's position... - 23/08/2023 11:47:24 PM 83 Views
Nobody is an outsider when reality is being attacked. - 25/08/2023 05:40:43 PM 91 Views
Fun facts - 26/08/2023 06:22:57 AM 91 Views
Not really "fun" so much as "a sad reality of biology", but yes. - 27/08/2023 09:42:14 PM 81 Views
Imagine if you had the same attitude towards trans people. - 28/08/2023 12:02:34 AM 75 Views
I may be no endocrinologist, but I at least understand simple biology. XY =/= XX =/= XXY - 28/08/2023 05:40:14 PM 77 Views
Simple is definitely true. Shame you never learned biology past what you were taught in high school. - 28/08/2023 11:21:38 PM 83 Views
Right, cause we're "butterflies" - 29/08/2023 04:57:20 AM 86 Views
I go to mass more than you. *NM* - 29/08/2023 09:58:09 AM 49 Views
Wow, really? And you still mutilated your body and told God that He was wrong about you? - 31/08/2023 05:44:32 PM 85 Views
I must say, - 31/08/2023 07:04:47 PM 84 Views
Love is being true. Love is being honest. Love is God. - 31/08/2023 07:52:59 PM 78 Views
Really went off the deep end there huh... - 31/08/2023 10:39:02 PM 80 Views
At least my beliefs can't be disproven by a $40 test at Wal-Mart. - 02/09/2023 03:40:43 PM 74 Views
It's ok. Many of us are quite sad for you too. - 29/08/2023 11:10:32 AM 78 Views
I couldn't care less what unbelievers think. You'll meet the Truth, one day. - 31/08/2023 05:45:31 PM 76 Views
No such thing as damnation, but thanks. - 31/08/2023 06:55:23 PM 77 Views
Then nothing more needs to be said. See who support your lies, Ghav? They literally deny Love. *NM* - 31/08/2023 07:54:23 PM 41 Views
He understands love a lot better than you do. *NM* - 01/09/2023 04:46:14 AM 45 Views
Hah! I knew you didn't worship God. Thanks for admitting it. *NM* - 02/09/2023 03:38:43 PM 43 Views
You're simply acting deranged at this point. - 03/09/2023 01:13:20 AM 89 Views
I hope you don't call yourselves Christian. - 03/09/2023 04:11:06 AM 73 Views
Of course I'm Christian. I confess the faith of the apostles and of the councils. - 03/09/2023 11:41:56 AM 72 Views
Would you castrate Michelangelo's David? - 03/09/2023 09:03:07 PM 72 Views
Dude, you have really driven this off the deep end. - 03/09/2023 04:03:16 PM 80 Views
It is not, and I am not. - 03/09/2023 09:06:48 PM 83 Views
You absolutely are - 03/09/2023 09:27:00 PM 67 Views
Caution is not condemnation. Warning is not judgment. - 03/09/2023 11:05:17 PM 74 Views
Bro, I'm not worried about your immortal soul. - 03/09/2023 11:35:41 PM 80 Views
I get that. But Ghav, supposedly, is. - 04/09/2023 12:09:55 AM 80 Views
You’ve expressed some pretty odious and ugly sentiments. - 03/09/2023 10:07:51 PM 86 Views
Yeah, I'm definitely an outsider, and so are you. - 28/08/2023 07:49:48 PM 80 Views
Ok. - 29/08/2023 05:09:14 AM 72 Views
I'll chew... - 11/08/2023 10:35:45 PM 108 Views
What's your stance on parents who refuse medical treatment for their children with cancer? - 11/08/2023 11:12:21 PM 102 Views
I think... - 11/08/2023 11:37:52 PM 101 Views
Really? - 12/08/2023 12:02:12 AM 94 Views
Am I being unreasonable? - 12/08/2023 05:16:06 AM 97 Views
Maybe not - 12/08/2023 03:38:50 PM 110 Views
Most of us don't really like "the gays," either. And referring to people as "blacks" is offensive. *NM* - 13/08/2023 12:34:32 AM 48 Views
... is referring to people as "whites" offensive? I really, really hope you say yes. *NM* - 14/08/2023 05:46:07 PM 48 Views
Unfortunately for whites, gays, blacks, and transgenders... - 14/08/2023 06:09:47 PM 81 Views
Their voice only counts *NM* - 14/08/2023 06:20:32 PM 44 Views
Touché *NM* - 14/08/2023 07:12:54 PM 48 Views
You can always choose not to be a dick online. *NM* - 14/08/2023 08:19:52 PM 43 Views
Now why would I want to do that? - 14/08/2023 11:24:09 PM 85 Views
You're not a dick. You're honest. - 14/08/2023 09:54:34 PM 81 Views
Why not both? - 15/08/2023 03:01:58 AM 85 Views
Sad, but true. - 17/08/2023 05:22:11 PM 77 Views
Re: I think... - 13/08/2023 12:35:05 AM 96 Views
Re: I'll chew... - 12/08/2023 03:49:47 PM 100 Views
Re: I'll chew... - 14/08/2023 10:56:15 PM 86 Views
Re: I'll chew... - 15/08/2023 11:32:12 PM 90 Views
3 weeks later, did you have fun with this thread Tyr? *NM* - 28/08/2023 08:16:13 PM 42 Views
We went a bit afield, sure, but hey, the board has a discussion going, doesn't it? *NM* - 29/08/2023 05:00:03 AM 41 Views
Well take care - 31/08/2023 11:06:43 PM 84 Views
Same to you. - 03/09/2023 04:20:19 AM 71 Views
Seeing things as beautiful or rotting - 03/09/2023 05:21:50 PM 78 Views
I could not disagree more. - 03/09/2023 09:13:31 PM 82 Views
See this is about you - 03/09/2023 11:22:53 PM 89 Views
No, it's about God. - 03/09/2023 11:28:55 PM 70 Views
How much history do you know about Samaritans? - 03/09/2023 11:39:54 PM 75 Views
Friend, you can cut the shit. - 04/09/2023 12:19:56 AM 80 Views
I was going to talk about Mount Gerizim you nitwit - 04/09/2023 01:36:16 AM 76 Views
Oh, my apologies then. - 04/09/2023 07:46:57 PM 75 Views

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