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Fun facts Vodalus Send a noteboard - 26/08/2023 06:22:57 AM

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View original postYou missed the second part of the sentence - 'that changing from one to the other is impossible on general principle'. As you also mention just below - even if somehow medical science would evolve much further still, you'd still say, no, a man will always be a man. Because of philosophical dogma, not because of biology.




View original postYou keep saying "philosophical", but genetics aren't a philosophy. If you have a person with XY biology, they are male. If you implant a uterus into them, they are an XY male with a Frankenuterus.

Lots of chromosomal anomalies exist: XXY, XXX, XYY, XXYY. And then there are people whose chromosomal sex is not consistent with their phenotypic sex, i.e., karyotypically female but phenotypically male.

I’m largely indifferent to this whole subject because it’s just plain alien to me. What I didn’t see in the discussion was anything on endocrinology and what role it might play in gender dysphoria, if any. I know xenoestrogen is causing girls to hit puberty at a younger age, and it can give boys boobs. So we know it affects the body. Could that lead to somatopsychic — and I do mean somatopsychic, not psychosomatic— changes/conditions? I guess I’m inclined to think that a scientific reason or answer is out there, or at least a possibility.


View original postIf medical science gets to the point of actually changing DNA, and an XY male can actually become an XX female, I would probably be willing to change my position.


View original postBut giving a man a uterus does not make him a woman.


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And I do feel obliged to point out that biologically speaking, the distinction isn't 100 percent binary, all sorts of intersex variations do naturally occur so not everyone is born unambiguously man or woman.


View original postWe aren't talking about intersex individuals, though, we're talking about "transgender" individuals. I've no qualms with the LGBIA group; they aren't sterilizing and mutilating children.


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View original postYou mean basic philosophical reality. If science would reach the point that a trans woman had a fully functional uterus and female genitals, it wouldn't make any biological sense to keep saying 'no, but hang on, she's still a man!'. She might have been a man originally, but then every butterfly was also once a caterpillar, it's still a butterfly now.


View original postNo, I mean biological reality. If science could reach the point that a trans woman had a fully functional uterus and female genitals, he's still be a man, with a fully functional frankenuterus and frankengenitals.


View original postChange the actual underlying biological reality, and the story changes. But we are not there. We are not even close.


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To go back to our hypothetical future advanced medical science for a moment, in that situation the claim of that trans woman being, in fact, a woman, would not be 'provably false' at all - and your insistence on it being false would be a matter of faith, or philosophical principle, as much as your belief in God. Of course, we aren't in that situation yet and we might not ever be, so the biological reality of a trans woman is indeed still different from a cis woman - but, depending on how early she started the process and how far she took it, it may be as close or closer to it than to a cis man. Treating her as if she's indistinguishable from a cis woman may require a certain extent of goodwill and deliberately overlooking the imperfections of the process, sure, but that's not 'make believe' or a 'delusion'.


View original postAnd for those who are willing to extend that "good"will, and lie to those who harm themselves, that's entirely their prerogative. Just as it is mine to not play along with make-believe.


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you are very wrong to think that physical pain or damage is automatically worse than mental pain or damage. I'd venture a guess that you have never suffered from major mental afflictions like severe depression, eating disorders, etc. yourself - but then neither have I, but I still have enough imagination and awareness to realize how devastating they can be.


View original postI will not go into my depression bona fides, but suffice to say I fully understand confusion, and I fully understand feeling like you have no choice. But feeling that you have no choice IS IN NO WAY the same thing as actually having no choice.


View original postLet's go back to the cancer situation; ff they do not do this operation, she will almost certainly die. She feels that she has no choice, and she is correct. Her choice is binary; do this or do not, live or die.


View original postThe "trans" girl, however, is in a different situation; she feels that she has no choice. If she does not do this, she will either have to live her life as the "wrong" gender, or kill herself. Her choice is not binary, because there is the third option; learn to love yourself for who you are, not who you want to be.


View original postI understand anguish. But the way through anguish is to steel yourself and grow, not to run away from reality and play "god" by harming yourself.


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View original postYou know very well why - you don't agree with it obviously, but you know it.


View original postBecause they want to be the other sex. Yet, the actual reality is what it is; they're not.


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View original postAnd they try to fix crooked teeth as well, though your talk about stopping teething entirely remains as silly a comparison as ever.


View original postAs silly as ever, huh.


View original post"Our child's identity is their own, so we're going to prevent their natural development until they can tell us what they want!"


View original postThat statement can apply equally to teething and puberty. You keep saying it's a "silly" comparison, but your arguments don't actually touch the underlying fact that it's the same thing. It's different to you because you see an inherent difference in childhood development, and teenage development. To those who aren't in the Transcult, the fact is that they're both just human development. Now, if an XY male grew a uterus and started having a period, and they wanted it removed? That is a corrective procedure. But an XY male wanting their testicles removed? What?


View original postThat's in no way comparable to braces.


View original postOr at least, that's how it looks to me.


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View original postSince you like to understand where people are coming from and you don't seem to be aware - it seemed obvious to me in the exchange with mookie, but upon rereading, it may be obvious only to those of us who already knew - I have to tell you that Ghav is in fact a trans woman, so it's rather personal for her.


View original postOooh, cool, so if you join the transcult, all of your shitty behavior is excused! Nice, I've seen this happen nationally but I didn't expect to see it on a tiny message board. So cool!


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View original postSure. There's plenty of 65+ folks who have gotten that far in life without ever developing the capability to engage in meaningful, responsible relationships.


View original postThis is as far as I can agree with this paragraph. To those on the right, the whole "13 year olds can totally meaningfully consent!" thing comes across as creepy and paedophilic.


View original postAnd frankly, that's much of what turns people like me off about the whole trans thing. Sorry friend, 13 year olds are not mature enough to consent to sex, and they sure as hell aren't mature enough to consent to never having actual sex cause they got their testicles removed and surgically inverted their penis when they were 14.


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View original postYou hear it a lot because it's true. I'd be happy to give you any number of sources, though I suspect you don't really care to see them?
Sure, I'll take 'em. I don't refuse to have my mind changed, especially about this, but I am hugely skeptical given the massive media coverage of every single incident.


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View original postSome of their much higher rate of physical victimization may not be a direct consequence of them being transgender, what with trans people being overrepresented among groups like homeless teenagers or sex workers who are more likely to face violence because of their living conditions / jobs - but then the reason for them being overrepresented in those groups is them being cast out by transphobic families or social circles, so indirectly their being trans is still the reason.


View original postI wonder how they fare compared to other mental health patients suffering from delusions? I wonder if they're comparable to schizophrenics?


View original postI wonder if they're "indirectly" being harmed because of their insanity, not because of their "gender", and since, because they've covered themselves in the trans flag, it's reported as being "trans hate"?


View original postI wonder if even asking that question makes me "transphobic"?


View original postJust kidding, I know I'm not allowed to question the dogma.


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As for fentanyl, or the wider problem including also other kinds of addictions, I don't think it's accurate to say nobody seems to care. There's plenty of media and political attention for it - but the solutions aren't easy ones, it's much easier to debate (on either side of the debate) about what bathrooms trans women should use than to actually help bring down the fentanyl overdose rates, and you'll get a lot more media attention and better future political prospects that way as well.


View original postThat's the fucking truth. Far better to fight over shit with no solution than to fix the actual hard problems.


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View original postFor someone complaining about others insulting rather than discussing, your way of discussion is pretty insulting, I have to say... was it really so hard to make this comparison without throwing in those little digs?


View original postI calls 'em like I sees 'em, and we were comparing unicorns, were we not? Supposedly, most of the trans people do suffer from body dysmorphia; I'm not questioning that group in this comparison. I'm pointing to the unicorn who doesn't suffer from body dysmorphia, compared to the unicorn who has breast cancer at 17.


View original postI was trying to make it a fair comparison.


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View original postYes, it's so much to ask, and the reason why has been explained often enough that I won't bother repeating it again. Although I do want to stress again that I do have sympathy for parents or doctors who - in good faith - push back against a trans child's desire for transition because they think that desire is too sudden or the child isn't taking the decision seriously enough. But there is a world of difference between wanting to protect children from making a very serious mistake in their choice to transition, or taking it as dogma that transitioning is always a mistake per definition, and only the former one is an actually valid reason for postponing that transition.




View original postAnd that's fine, you're entitled to your view, and good on you for not being one of the ultrawokies, like Oregon, who will kidnap kids from their parents for not allowing them to mutilate themselves.


View original postBut you're the type of person I can get along with. We don't have to agree, because we know the world's big enough for us to disagree.


View original postAnd we're the minority these days.


View original postBetwixt the trumpists and the wokists, we're in a place of conflict and hatred. And neither the wokists nor the trumpists show any desire to lessen that.


View original postBut at least the trumpists aren't mutilating children.

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Respectfully, do you truly believe this? - 09/08/2023 05:42:31 PM 105 Views
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Your thoughts - 11/08/2023 04:14:37 PM 94 Views
Yes, that's true. - 11/08/2023 06:11:49 PM 98 Views
Re: Yes, that's true. - 12/08/2023 04:25:28 PM 94 Views
This is not bait, I am legitimately trying to understand. And if I understand correctly... - 11/08/2023 05:17:02 PM 95 Views
As I said, it wasn't intended as perfect analogy - it's about how much say should children have. - 11/08/2023 06:44:33 PM 101 Views
No, seriously, only the last one was intended as parody. And I'd like an explanation. - 14/08/2023 05:43:37 PM 89 Views
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Indeed. - 14/08/2023 09:50:53 PM 88 Views
Re: No, seriously, only the last one was intended as parody. And I'd like an explanation. - 15/08/2023 04:14:57 PM 97 Views
See, you're willing to discuss, instead of insult. Others on this board might take note. - 17/08/2023 05:18:39 PM 94 Views
Yeah, well, I have the luxury of an outsider's position... - 23/08/2023 11:47:24 PM 82 Views
Nobody is an outsider when reality is being attacked. - 25/08/2023 05:40:43 PM 88 Views
Fun facts - 26/08/2023 06:22:57 AM 91 Views
Not really "fun" so much as "a sad reality of biology", but yes. - 27/08/2023 09:42:14 PM 80 Views
Imagine if you had the same attitude towards trans people. - 28/08/2023 12:02:34 AM 74 Views
I may be no endocrinologist, but I at least understand simple biology. XY =/= XX =/= XXY - 28/08/2023 05:40:14 PM 77 Views
Simple is definitely true. Shame you never learned biology past what you were taught in high school. - 28/08/2023 11:21:38 PM 82 Views
Right, cause we're "butterflies" - 29/08/2023 04:57:20 AM 85 Views
I go to mass more than you. *NM* - 29/08/2023 09:58:09 AM 47 Views
Wow, really? And you still mutilated your body and told God that He was wrong about you? - 31/08/2023 05:44:32 PM 84 Views
I must say, - 31/08/2023 07:04:47 PM 83 Views
Love is being true. Love is being honest. Love is God. - 31/08/2023 07:52:59 PM 76 Views
Really went off the deep end there huh... - 31/08/2023 10:39:02 PM 77 Views
At least my beliefs can't be disproven by a $40 test at Wal-Mart. - 02/09/2023 03:40:43 PM 73 Views
It's ok. Many of us are quite sad for you too. - 29/08/2023 11:10:32 AM 75 Views
I couldn't care less what unbelievers think. You'll meet the Truth, one day. - 31/08/2023 05:45:31 PM 75 Views
No such thing as damnation, but thanks. - 31/08/2023 06:55:23 PM 75 Views
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He understands love a lot better than you do. *NM* - 01/09/2023 04:46:14 AM 43 Views
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Of course I'm Christian. I confess the faith of the apostles and of the councils. - 03/09/2023 11:41:56 AM 70 Views
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Dude, you have really driven this off the deep end. - 03/09/2023 04:03:16 PM 79 Views
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You absolutely are - 03/09/2023 09:27:00 PM 66 Views
Caution is not condemnation. Warning is not judgment. - 03/09/2023 11:05:17 PM 73 Views
Bro, I'm not worried about your immortal soul. - 03/09/2023 11:35:41 PM 78 Views
I get that. But Ghav, supposedly, is. - 04/09/2023 12:09:55 AM 76 Views
You’ve expressed some pretty odious and ugly sentiments. - 03/09/2023 10:07:51 PM 85 Views
Yeah, I'm definitely an outsider, and so are you. - 28/08/2023 07:49:48 PM 78 Views
Ok. - 29/08/2023 05:09:14 AM 71 Views
I'll chew... - 11/08/2023 10:35:45 PM 106 Views
What's your stance on parents who refuse medical treatment for their children with cancer? - 11/08/2023 11:12:21 PM 100 Views
I think... - 11/08/2023 11:37:52 PM 100 Views
Really? - 12/08/2023 12:02:12 AM 92 Views
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Maybe not - 12/08/2023 03:38:50 PM 108 Views
Most of us don't really like "the gays," either. And referring to people as "blacks" is offensive. *NM* - 13/08/2023 12:34:32 AM 46 Views
... is referring to people as "whites" offensive? I really, really hope you say yes. *NM* - 14/08/2023 05:46:07 PM 47 Views
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Touché *NM* - 14/08/2023 07:12:54 PM 48 Views
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Re: I think... - 13/08/2023 12:35:05 AM 94 Views
Re: I'll chew... - 12/08/2023 03:49:47 PM 98 Views
Re: I'll chew... - 14/08/2023 10:56:15 PM 86 Views
Re: I'll chew... - 15/08/2023 11:32:12 PM 88 Views
3 weeks later, did you have fun with this thread Tyr? *NM* - 28/08/2023 08:16:13 PM 41 Views
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Same to you. - 03/09/2023 04:20:19 AM 71 Views
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Oh, my apologies then. - 04/09/2023 07:46:57 PM 75 Views

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