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Re: I don't understand your point Corwin Send a noteboard - 05/09/2009 09:02:47 AM
A lot of this work was done by Moiraine and Siuan as well as Cadsuane and co. and lets not forget Verin either. The Wondergirls would not have existed but for Moiraine and wouldn't have become ready so fast but for Siuan.


So throw Moiraine, Siuan, Verin, and Cadsuane into the mix. That leaves you with 7 Aes Sedai out of roughly one thousand who have done little else but get in the way or make problems for the main characters in the series.


Why must everyone be a hero? Who can set the example... the Whitecloaks, the Aiel, the Sharans, the Seanchan? Every group has a bunch of achievers and legends. You can't expect 1,000 Sisters to all be special. They're mostly normal people who can channel and go about their daily activities.


My point is they aren't toted up to be normal people who can channel and they definitely don't mind their own business and go about their daily activities like normal people. I agree not everyone can or even should be heroes. But other groups that you reference aren't 100% composed of individuals who think they should be in charge of everything and everyone. The fact of the matter is, the majority of Aes Sedai (even those that aren't Black Ajah) negatively impact the war against the Shadow by meddling with everything they can on the grounds that they are Aes Sedai and should be in control. Very few Aes Sedai have had a positive impact in the series, and those that have done something positive have mostly had their actions negated by the rest of the Aes Sedai.


Yes, but remember that over 2/3 of Aes Sedai are permanently in the Tower - so it's not a fallacy to think that they are normal people who go about their lives. While most of them consider themselves to be queens on a level of royalty, they only act that way outside of the Tower, which is quite uncommon. Most Sisters stroll the halls and go about their daily activities.

The 'series' as you put it is a giant soup of good and evil deeds. It's very one dimensional to say that the Aes Sedai have had a minimal positive impact on the series. They do good things which are countered by Elaida's stupidity or the evil of the Black Ajah, but the same is really true of any group... Jaichim Carridin is surely counterproductive to any Whitecloak efforts to battle the Shadow, as is Suroth for the Seanchan.


I have a difficult time envisioning 2/3 of Aes Sedai as "normal people who go about their lives." Even Aes Sedai that are (for the most part) permanently in the Tower attempt to manipulate nations and politics from afar, and consider themselves the puppet-masters of the world (the possible exception to this being those of the Brown Ajah - we've seen members of every other Ajah meddle in world politics). Organizationally, they are a mess, and this is not only because of leadership issues - although that is a significant problem. Elaida's actions, idiotic as they may be, are probably similar to what a large number of Aes Sedai would do in her place, if given the opportunity. This point seems to be supported by the fact that, although her blunders appear enormously damaging to the Tower from a reader's perspective, she has not been overthrown by her supporters. This seems to indicate that, although the results have been far from ideal, the decision-making behind her actions is largely in accordance with the opinions and perspectives of her followers. And although she is gradually losing the support of her followers in the Tower, I would argue that this is because of disastrous results and not necessarily poor decision-making. Siuan, on the other hand, was overthrown merely for conspiring to let the Dragon Reborn run loose in the world - something considered anathema to just about all Aes Sedai. Elaida's attempts to deal with Rand and the Black Tower, colossal defeats though they were, falls into line with the sentiments expressed by most Aes Sedai over the course of the series: the Dragon Reborn should be under the control of the White Tower, and men who channel should be dealt with - whatever the cost. Their refusal as an organization to admit that they have lost control over events has created innumerable problems in the series for the side of the Light.

I would say the series is a "giant soup" of deeds, and I will not go farther than that. Although the fundamental basis of the series is good versus evil, there is too much that falls in the gray area between these two polar opposites to definitively categorize most actions as either "good" or "evil." You're right in saying that it is one dimensional to say the Aes Sedai have had a minimal positive impact on the series, because to do so is a denial of perspective. Even the most delusional of Aes Sedai believe what they are doing is in the best interests of others. It is difficult to characterize Elaida's misguided attempts at restoring Aes Sedai control as "evil," but from the viewpoint of the main characters, the actions of most Aes Sedai absolutely impact them negatively. As an organization, Aes Sedai are supposed to be responsible for protecting the world from the Shadow; this charge is a part of a number of their rituals and ceremonies - one of the titles of the Amyrlin is the "Watcher of the Seals." Despite this, the White Tower as an organization has done nearly nothing to fight the Shadow in the series, even though all signs point to Tarmon Gai'don being in the very near future. Instead of working together to deal with problems with the world on the line, the White Tower has deteriorated into Ajah politics and even civil war. You are right in attributing some of this dysfunction to workings of the Black Ajah, but more than enough of it is the product of Aes Sedai arrogance and refusal to cooperate. Look at the Salidar delegation sent to Rand. They stand in stark contrast to the delegation sent by Elaida, but they nevertheless failed to entice Rand into an alliance they desperately needed (and acknowledged they desperately needed) because they refused to submit to Rand's very simple demands, and squandered their chances at forging an alliance in a meaningless power struggle to prove they could not be intimidated. This group ended up being useful to Rand in the series only because he forced them to obey him with oaths of fealty, the result of blatantly defying his restrictions on the number of Aes Sedai to follow him to Cairhien. As it stands right now, Rand does not have a formal alliance with Egwene because of this stubborn refusal to relinquish their claims to authority.

Of course, there are some notable exceptions to this, as mentioned previously, but these are all examples of Aes Sedai acting independently of the will of the Hall and Tower. Even Moiraine, who did more than perhaps any other Aes Sedai toward helping the main characters do what they must do, and therefore helping the world survive, tried to manipulate the characters initially, and admitted in her final letter to Rand that her attempts to control him were wrong. For the most part, Aes Sedai have made greater nuisances of themselves than members any other group, from the perspective of the main characters. All of this cannot be attributed to the Black Ajah - we have seen that other groups have been thoroughly infiltrated by Darkfriends, and yet no other organization has created so many problems. The Seanchan are not a group dedicated to fighting the Shadow, so their actions are understandable. The Whitecloaks, however, are a good example, and are very similar to the Aes Sedai in more ways than they would like. The organizational incompetence of both groups is unbelievable, but Aes Sedai are never supposed to be incompetent, while Whitecloaks are only soldiers with a perverted sense of justice. And while Jaichim Carridin may occasionally cause some problems, sadly it is the Whitecloaks themselves that are counterproductive to their own efforts and any intention they may have to fight the Shadow. The same is true of Aes Sedai, and while other groups have certainly created problems for the main characters (in particular the nobles of just about every land conquered by Rand), Aes Sedai hold themselves to a higher standard than everyone else, and should be judged according to that standard.
This message last edited by Corwin on 05/09/2009 at 09:02:56 AM
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You know... it feels like the Aes Sedai are pretty superflouous - 02/09/2009 09:48:19 PM 1123 Views
Y'know, the paralells betwen the Aes Sedai in the White Tower... - 02/09/2009 10:46:29 PM 713 Views
Well said. Hadn't really thought of it that way before *NM* - 03/09/2009 12:01:30 AM 462 Views
And yet the WT has been THE single greatest force for continuity and civilization. - 03/09/2009 03:37:14 AM 736 Views
Re: And yet the WT has been THE single greatest force for continuity and civilization. - 03/09/2009 05:46:13 AM 695 Views
Really? - 03/09/2009 05:52:38 AM 659 Views
Re: Really? - 03/09/2009 06:03:13 AM 628 Views
So lets add a few more - 03/09/2009 11:42:48 AM 632 Views
most of these are accounted for above - 03/09/2009 02:18:01 PM 708 Views
But who did the work? - 03/09/2009 05:37:00 PM 561 Views
While these are good, none of it is because of the White Tower - 03/09/2009 05:43:56 PM 572 Views
So if Elaida didn't order it, it doesn't count? - 03/09/2009 07:29:20 PM 573 Views
Actually I think that's his point - 04/09/2009 01:40:37 PM 652 Views
Spot-on - 04/09/2009 08:56:30 PM 480 Views
Re: Actually I think that's his point - 05/09/2009 03:17:25 AM 528 Views
Re: But who did the work? - 04/09/2009 01:32:19 PM 598 Views
Only one point because obviously your mind is made up. - 05/09/2009 06:13:23 AM 615 Views
well, yeah - 05/09/2009 02:33:51 PM 690 Views
In that case, Rand, Mat, Perrin... all of them are superfluous. - 05/09/2009 03:03:07 PM 557 Views
Re: In that case, Rand, Mat, Perrin... all of them are superfluous. - 05/09/2009 04:57:44 PM 551 Views
No, fionwe1987 is absolutely right! - 05/09/2009 05:13:39 PM 510 Views
I'm glad the real world disagrees with you - 05/09/2009 05:05:50 PM 556 Views
I'm not convinced that it does - 05/09/2009 05:44:10 PM 655 Views
I don't understand your point - 03/09/2009 04:25:22 PM 578 Views
Re: I don't understand your point - 03/09/2009 09:09:38 PM 624 Views
Re: I don't understand your point - 03/09/2009 09:23:53 PM 563 Views
Re: I don't understand your point - 05/09/2009 09:02:47 AM 750 Views
Re: I don't understand your point - 03/09/2009 09:49:58 PM 537 Views
I was talking about the WT specifically, and only during recent years. It's Gotta be the Shadow, - 03/09/2009 05:39:11 PM 561 Views
So what you are really saying is that if you ignore over 2/3rds of the AS the rest aren't doing much - 03/09/2009 06:07:23 PM 505 Views
I'm talking about the organization as a whole - 03/09/2009 10:07:37 PM 573 Views
No you are talking about Elaida - 03/09/2009 10:32:59 PM 494 Views
You just made our point... - 04/09/2009 12:49:44 AM 586 Views
Well, because most of her actions infringe on that "bubble" - 04/09/2009 09:00:52 PM 495 Views
Not at all... - 04/09/2009 09:23:09 PM 608 Views
To a certain extent - 03/09/2009 11:33:30 AM 736 Views
Definitely. And Egwene is in denial. - 03/09/2009 05:53:14 PM 574 Views
Some pretty big blanket statements - 03/09/2009 10:24:50 PM 687 Views
Without the Tower - 03/09/2009 02:05:09 PM 487 Views
Actually, I think Verin is a good metaphor here. - 03/09/2009 07:59:46 PM 536 Views
Agrees with Nossy - 03/09/2009 10:44:06 PM 828 Views
That's mostly what I was trying to say - 04/09/2009 09:03:52 PM 490 Views
Re: That's mostly what I was trying to say - 05/09/2009 03:33:46 AM 844 Views

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