fact: Elayne and others describe the palace as labyrinthine but lofty. It has these large corridors, interconnected, with many doors, niches with objects - especially the ground floor where the "public areas" like the throne room, ballrooms, reception rooms, waiting rooms, courtyards and so on are located. This is the area important visitors see etc.
fact: the area Asmodean was in is one used by the Queen and guests. It leads to this nice and quiet inner courtyard she uses, where Aviendha, Mat and Asmodean were. The rooms Rand has picked for himself look over thsi courtyard. The point is: this is not a work area for servants or workers, it's an area of the palace for the masters. Servant places in that area would be located with service to master rooms in mind (ie: discreet but close to the rooms where service is needed).
fact: the corridor from the courtyard Asmodean used was one in which Rahvin and Rand fought.
fact: At no point did Rahvin and Rand ended up in a dead end with a small door. They kept moving from corridor to corridor until Rahvin suddenly went into TAR. The point is: the small door can't be located at the end of a corridor, and the corridor won't be a long doorless stretch either. The small door was along the way in one of the side walls, and the corridor keeps going beyond it. The corridor may lead to the throne room where Rand surprised Rahvin, in fact we know</i it does because of the balefire marks, but we don't know if it does so directly, or you have to turn here and there and take other corridors before you get in that area, and how far it is from the courtyard.
fact: We don't know where Asmodean was heading from the courtyard. Maybe he did, but he didn't think about it. He didn't know the palace well, and was most likely going back in the way he came out to the courtyard. Was he returning to Rand, going back to his rooms (neither would be on the ground floor in Caemlyn), just taking a walk? We don't know. What we know is that the small door wasn't his destination, he didn't even know it existed, and was never looking for something like that! He spotted it all of a sudden as he progressed in the corridor, seing it his mind made the immediate connection to servants (because it's a small door in comparison to the masters' doors around), and to a servants' pantry (which may or not be there.. we don't know Asmodean was right, though the smallness of the door in a palace is a valid indication this door most likely leads to a servant area1/room or another). That door made him think he could use a drink. He stopped, took the last steps to the door, opened it, stepped inside and there, he saw his killer.
So, is it conceivable that someone who saw Asmodean go back in could have guessed where he really went (as opposed to his final destination he never reached and we don't know about, if he even had a precise aim in mind)? No, absolutely not. These corridors lead to many places, and this one is confirmed not to be a deadend. Someone observing Asmodean would make the exact same guesses we can make: that he was heading back to his rooms, or to Rand, or was taking a stroll in the palace. We don't even know if the room he entered really lead to a pantry (Maybe not. Food and drink service in Caemlyn is shown as being done from the kitchens later on, drinks and food being carried in the formal rooms before the guests arrive. It doesn't mean the floor's footmen etc. don't have pantries to await calls or rest, however), and no one goes to the servant pantries normally. People ring a servant who comes to you. Asmodean entered that door because most of the servants had fled and no one was in attendance to serve anyone. To figure out the room Asmodean entered, someone would have to be right behind him in the last seconds before he saw the small door, went to it and opened it. It's very unlikely someone was behind him. That person would have to come from one of the side rooms or the courtyard, to begin with, and with the palace empty and thus silent, Asmodean would have noticed footsteps behind or ahead of him anyway (and before you mention that, Slayer wears boots - not slippers or mocassins - he can't be that stealthy), especially since there'd be a lot of echo in an empty high ceilinged palace (we even know for a fact there is, much later Elayne and co. hear the echo of Slayer's footsteps as he clumsily runs away from the spot he was spying on them).
This is all irrelevant anyway: Jordan said Asmodean was a "road kill" and a murder of opportunity. No one has been following him, waiting to ambush him and kill him. If Jordan wanted us to deduce that, he would have had Asmodean notice a noise and look around at some point in his strolling, before he opened the door. The scene is written quite clearly so we understand right away Asmodean wasn't heading for this location all along but at the last minute chose to open that small door. The person inside the room wasn't waiting for him, the person was surprised by him in this room, but that person was faster to react than he was (unlike Asmodean, the person had a few precious seconds' warning that someone was opening the door and getting in the room).
It doesn't mean you have the wrong killer, but most definitely you have the circumstances of the murder all wrong, because your theory as it stands contradicts the facts laid out by the text.
You want Slayer to be the killer, start by finding believable reasons for him to have been in that room where Asmodean surprised him, and revise your facts to make this into a proper murder of opportunity, not a manhunt and execution you twist into a fake murder of opportunity..
fact: the area Asmodean was in is one used by the Queen and guests. It leads to this nice and quiet inner courtyard she uses, where Aviendha, Mat and Asmodean were. The rooms Rand has picked for himself look over thsi courtyard. The point is: this is not a work area for servants or workers, it's an area of the palace for the masters. Servant places in that area would be located with service to master rooms in mind (ie: discreet but close to the rooms where service is needed).
fact: the corridor from the courtyard Asmodean used was one in which Rahvin and Rand fought.
fact: At no point did Rahvin and Rand ended up in a dead end with a small door. They kept moving from corridor to corridor until Rahvin suddenly went into TAR. The point is: the small door can't be located at the end of a corridor, and the corridor won't be a long doorless stretch either. The small door was along the way in one of the side walls, and the corridor keeps going beyond it. The corridor may lead to the throne room where Rand surprised Rahvin, in fact we know</i it does because of the balefire marks, but we don't know if it does so directly, or you have to turn here and there and take other corridors before you get in that area, and how far it is from the courtyard.
fact: We don't know where Asmodean was heading from the courtyard. Maybe he did, but he didn't think about it. He didn't know the palace well, and was most likely going back in the way he came out to the courtyard. Was he returning to Rand, going back to his rooms (neither would be on the ground floor in Caemlyn), just taking a walk? We don't know. What we know is that the small door wasn't his destination, he didn't even know it existed, and was never looking for something like that! He spotted it all of a sudden as he progressed in the corridor, seing it his mind made the immediate connection to servants (because it's a small door in comparison to the masters' doors around), and to a servants' pantry (which may or not be there.. we don't know Asmodean was right, though the smallness of the door in a palace is a valid indication this door most likely leads to a servant area1/room or another). That door made him think he could use a drink. He stopped, took the last steps to the door, opened it, stepped inside and there, he saw his killer.
So, is it conceivable that someone who saw Asmodean go back in could have guessed where he really went (as opposed to his final destination he never reached and we don't know about, if he even had a precise aim in mind)? No, absolutely not. These corridors lead to many places, and this one is confirmed not to be a deadend. Someone observing Asmodean would make the exact same guesses we can make: that he was heading back to his rooms, or to Rand, or was taking a stroll in the palace. We don't even know if the room he entered really lead to a pantry (Maybe not. Food and drink service in Caemlyn is shown as being done from the kitchens later on, drinks and food being carried in the formal rooms before the guests arrive. It doesn't mean the floor's footmen etc. don't have pantries to await calls or rest, however), and no one goes to the servant pantries normally. People ring a servant who comes to you. Asmodean entered that door because most of the servants had fled and no one was in attendance to serve anyone. To figure out the room Asmodean entered, someone would have to be right behind him in the last seconds before he saw the small door, went to it and opened it. It's very unlikely someone was behind him. That person would have to come from one of the side rooms or the courtyard, to begin with, and with the palace empty and thus silent, Asmodean would have noticed footsteps behind or ahead of him anyway (and before you mention that, Slayer wears boots - not slippers or mocassins - he can't be that stealthy), especially since there'd be a lot of echo in an empty high ceilinged palace (we even know for a fact there is, much later Elayne and co. hear the echo of Slayer's footsteps as he clumsily runs away from the spot he was spying on them).
This is all irrelevant anyway: Jordan said Asmodean was a "road kill" and a murder of opportunity. No one has been following him, waiting to ambush him and kill him. If Jordan wanted us to deduce that, he would have had Asmodean notice a noise and look around at some point in his strolling, before he opened the door. The scene is written quite clearly so we understand right away Asmodean wasn't heading for this location all along but at the last minute chose to open that small door. The person inside the room wasn't waiting for him, the person was surprised by him in this room, but that person was faster to react than he was (unlike Asmodean, the person had a few precious seconds' warning that someone was opening the door and getting in the room).
It doesn't mean you have the wrong killer, but most definitely you have the circumstances of the murder all wrong, because your theory as it stands contradicts the facts laid out by the text.
You want Slayer to be the killer, start by finding believable reasons for him to have been in that room where Asmodean surprised him, and revise your facts to make this into a proper murder of opportunity, not a manhunt and execution you twist into a fake murder of opportunity..
An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds
- 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM
2673 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery....
- 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM
1400 Views
I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer...
- 28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM
1199 Views
In addition to Etzel's comments
- 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM
1057 Views
I'm pretty sure the Myrdraal that killed Caradin's family was a Proto-version of SH *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:56:58 PM
678 Views
Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin *NM*
- 29/05/2010 04:40:15 PM
648 Views
Re: Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin
- 29/05/2010 09:16:01 PM
1205 Views
Far-fetched, IMO
- 27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM
1509 Views
I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM
1191 Views
The way you twist things, it certainly seems so!
- 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM
1299 Views
Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM
1160 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM
1186 Views
The point is...
- 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM
1234 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler
- 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM
1284 Views
As is Slayer
- 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM
1146 Views
There is no evidence of this at all
- 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM
1113 Views
Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys
- 28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM
1096 Views
You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say....
- 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM
1180 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't
- 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM
1334 Views
We often see...
- 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM
1188 Views
I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious
- 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM
1259 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM
1126 Views
Well...
- 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM
1205 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM
1191 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above
- 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM
1118 Views
your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex!
- 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM
1172 Views
It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense
- 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM
1131 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM
1295 Views
No...
- 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM
1199 Views
let's try this another way
- 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM
1187 Views
The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM
1115 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM
1259 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal.
- 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM
1328 Views
RJ used the expression...
- 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM
1115 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1218 Views
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1218 Views
Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM
1172 Views
Couple of questions
- 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM
1181 Views
Be'lal managed to get out NO!
- 27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM
1033 Views
Hmmm
- 27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM
1155 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves
- 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM
1065 Views
Hmmm I wonder about that.
- 27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM
1132 Views
I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly
- 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM
1224 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM*
- 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM
595 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM
1173 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM
1153 Views
But look...
- 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM
1181 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved
- 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM
1068 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM
1146 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM
1149 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM
1196 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM
1071 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM
1134 Views
Yet Slayer is no where to be seen between his vanishing after TSR and the start of WH
- 28/05/2010 03:09:44 PM
1152 Views
???
- 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM
1110 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM
1139 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT
- 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM
911 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM
1068 Views
Re: Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM
1038 Views
But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 05:33:02 PM
1082 Views
Re: But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 07:05:27 PM
1061 Views
Re: Far-fetched, IMO
- 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM
1258 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM*
- 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM
719 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot?
- 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM
966 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM
1161 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM
1393 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM
871 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM
1289 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo.....
- 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM
1070 Views
Doesn't make sense
- 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM
1099 Views
Sorry, Lanfear did it.....
- 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM
1033 Views
Considering that RJ didn't even necessarily want to reveal it, it was pretty random, yeah. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:25:54 AM
673 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
711 Views
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
711 Views
There is a quote that refutes this...
- 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM
1143 Views
He could have recognized Moridan.....due to the True Power in his eyes.
- 29/05/2010 03:49:49 AM
1092 Views
No other Forsaken immediately recognizes Moridin as Ishy because of the saa. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:26:44 AM
674 Views
RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever
- 28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM
1164 Views
Re: RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:24:41 PM
766 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory
- 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM
1051 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer...
- 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM
1112 Views
Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that
- 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM
1093 Views
Well, I don't think so.
- 29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM
1113 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM
979 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
981 Views
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
981 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM
1037 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books"
- 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM
997 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM
1035 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM
994 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM*
- 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM
709 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books
- 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM
932 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he.
- 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM
1109 Views
That's what I've always thought as well.
- 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM
1031 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised".....
- 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM
1025 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity
- 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM
1050 Views
That is simply false.
- 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM
1124 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only"
- 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM
1180 Views
Of course, it is false
- 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM
1105 Views
Here are the quotes
- 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM
1034 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM
703 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to
- 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM
943 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out.
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
566 Views
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
566 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM
761 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM
1109 Views
Well...
- 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM
1106 Views
Logic
- 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM
1064 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1063 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1063 Views
I'm just being a smartass
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
731 Views
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
731 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense.
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1111 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1111 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1050 Views
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1050 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM
1152 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over
- 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM
1108 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful...
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1112 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1112 Views
No they show that she is deliberate!
- 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM
1135 Views
That are just semantics
- 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM
1206 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH?
- 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM
1081 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes...
- 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM
1048 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point?
- 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM
1132 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1173 Views
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1173 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1138 Views
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1138 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it...
- 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM
1201 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled
- 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM
1209 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said.
- 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM
969 Views
um no it's not
- 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM
1054 Views
It's told after that...
- 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM
1017 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place
- 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM
1172 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM
1096 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ...
- 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM
1088 Views
Ah, whatever...
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1011 Views
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1011 Views
We are on the exact same page
- 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM
1071 Views
