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RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM
Because when we have to go through stuff like this, it's Lost-level speculation. I liked that show a good bit, and even posted my opinions on certain episodes or a few theories, but I didn't really try to suss out how the relatively unimportant stuff worked out.

I posted a thread presenting the famous "Bob's Theory," and presented my own notes on the potential culprits... Yet who killed Asmo isn't a particularly important issue, as it almost certainly won't go anywhere (e.g., involves a person who is presently sitting in Caemlyn's palace and causing trouble).

I'd never expect to type the words in this following clause: RJ did an uncontrovertibly bad writing job once [see below], and the result has been a mystery that's engendered obsessive levels of contemplation. This shouldn't be interpreted as me saying that Etzel (who deserves credit for this) or anyone else *is* obsessive; just that the attention needed, especially considered in total, is obsessive.

Nor do I think I am superior in this regard. Although I haven't really tried a grand-Asmo theory, I have frequently pondered the killer's identity, and I've read many of the ideas posted on this topic. So it's eaten up a bit of my time too, and I now see the folly in the time wasted.

I say that RJ failed, not lightly, because our deeply-missed Author never intended to create a mystery. The fact that he felt it only required a little thought - yet it doesn't and has created a giant uncertainty in the minds of so many(!) - is all the proof that's needed to use the word "fail" comfortably (if unwillingly). Even typos slip through the cracks on a major literary work (and valuable intellectual property), everybody makes mistakes, and it's the readers who have to suffer for it. And, of course, the Author and associated staff, since they have to be pestered with a zillion questions about it.

A writer communicates ideas; communicating them well mixes with how clear or opaque a writer wishes to be in a particular instance. RJ intended this to be fairly transparent, and instead it's a great big nebulous brick wall. It sounds like a syllogism that may not be accurate at all, but still: when all facts are considered, this question is still like a black hole where you can barely definitively know *anything* about it. So I guess RJ messed up, because the answer has never seemed irreducibly certain. I congratulate the person who got it right; yet even s/he had to actually ask RJ to confirm their idea. So it wasn't even certain then. I sincerely hope I'm not suffering from selfishness or jealousy masquerading as reason.

For me, at least, there's two big realizations that I got from reading an intelligent second-by-second analysis of what happened to Asmo:
(a) the manner of death must've been really special for no-one to notice even a quick burst of nearby OP ("TP'd to Death" would read silly/stupid/funny), so Fain is a still a great candidate since perhaps being stabbed by his knife (or his Powers) can prevent a soul from being retrieved
and
(b) thinking about this requires too much brain power that I should put elsewhere, and I now feel badly about any extra reading I may have done on this topic.

I deeply hope that RJ and Sanderson give us an answer on the first or second page of ToM - even better if it's in the Prologue, so everyone gets the answer when the advance prologue is available on Amazon or B&N or Borders online. That way we can put aside all the hyper-observation around this topic and just enjoy the whole book a month later with this issue off our collective minds (those of us who spent serious time on this). It's getting to the point where I could almost envy the casual readers, and envy isn't a natural emotion for me.
This message last edited by newyorkersedai on 29/05/2010 at 04:44:20 PM
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An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM 2732 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery.... - 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM 1439 Views
Surely, there can never be enough Asmo threads! *NM* - 27/05/2010 04:18:06 PM 774 Views
I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer... - 28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM 1240 Views
It's not really obvious... - 28/05/2010 09:08:27 AM 1173 Views
In addition to Etzel's comments - 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM 1105 Views
Far-fetched, IMO - 27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM 1551 Views
very well said *NM* - 27/05/2010 04:19:10 PM 799 Views
I don't want Slayer to be the killer - 27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM 1233 Views
The way you twist things, it certainly seems so! - 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM 1350 Views
Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM 1194 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM 1222 Views
The point is... - 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM 1280 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler - 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM 1329 Views
As is Slayer - 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM 1196 Views
There is no evidence of this at all - 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM 1150 Views
Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys - 28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM 1133 Views
so far we've seen Slayer kill a sleeping guy and his wife - 28/05/2010 12:45:14 PM 1161 Views
I disagree. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:50:02 PM 1275 Views
You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say.... - 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM 1227 Views
I think this is your interpretation - 28/05/2010 02:50:14 PM 1172 Views
Yeah right... - 27/05/2010 08:35:35 PM 1283 Views
See my replies above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:40:42 AM 1071 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 28/05/2010 08:28:16 AM 1050 Views
See my repy to DomA. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:39:15 AM 1031 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't - 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM 1379 Views
We often see... - 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM 1229 Views
I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious - 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM 1315 Views
Ok, as we said in the other thread, let's RAFO! *NM* - 27/05/2010 05:57:49 PM 1320 Views
Agreed *NM* - 27/05/2010 06:03:51 PM 725 Views
Indeed - 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM 1168 Views
Well... - 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM 1240 Views
Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM 1234 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above - 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM 1162 Views
your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex! - 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM 1217 Views
It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense - 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM 1180 Views
common sense? - 28/05/2010 12:51:25 PM 1170 Views
See my posts above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:50:56 PM 1189 Views
Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM 1347 Views
No... - 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM 1239 Views
let's try this another way - 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM 1232 Views
The main problem with Graendal is... - 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM 1150 Views
Graendal has a pretty significant role in TFoH - 28/05/2010 06:54:39 PM 1256 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is... - 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM 1300 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal. - 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM 1374 Views
RJ used the expression... - 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM 1161 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself - 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM 1262 Views
Re: No... - 28/05/2010 03:38:49 PM 1135 Views
Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer - 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM 1212 Views
Couple of questions - 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM 1229 Views
Be'lal managed to get out NO! - 27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM 1068 Views
Hmmm - 27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM 1198 Views
Re: Hmmm - 27/05/2010 10:34:30 PM 1071 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves - 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM 1095 Views
Hmmm I wonder about that. - 27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM 1174 Views
I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly - 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM 1262 Views
We've seen it done. - 28/05/2010 06:32:08 PM 1111 Views
Not the same thing - 28/05/2010 07:00:13 PM 1102 Views
Re: Couple of questions - 28/05/2010 03:29:29 PM 1261 Views
As said... - 28/05/2010 08:36:28 AM 1192 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM* - 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM 609 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM 1214 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM 1197 Views
But look... - 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM 1214 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved - 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM 1114 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM 1184 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM 1207 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM 1238 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM 1120 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM 1184 Views
??? - 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM 1152 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM 1184 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT - 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM 953 Views
Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM 1104 Views
Re: Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM 1086 Views
LOL!! - 28/05/2010 03:29:35 PM 917 Views
Too much? - 28/05/2010 05:16:44 PM 1184 Views
Re: Far-fetched, IMO - 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM 1292 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM* - 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM 735 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? - 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM 998 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM 1196 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM 1427 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM 912 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM 1337 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 06:19:18 PM 1126 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 09:16:21 PM 1128 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo..... - 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM 1108 Views
Doesn't make sense - 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM 1135 Views
Sorry, Lanfear did it..... - 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM 1062 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more *NM* - 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM 743 Views
There is a quote that refutes this... - 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM 1187 Views
RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever - 28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM 1204 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory - 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM 1126 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer... - 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM 1154 Views
Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that - 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM 1131 Views
Well, I don't think so. - 29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM 1160 Views
yet he never gave an answer like this one - 29/05/2010 02:57:35 PM 1224 Views
Again... - 29/05/2010 03:09:06 PM 1218 Views
Taking things NO - 29/05/2010 03:12:24 PM 1190 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM 1011 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him - 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM 1016 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM* - 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM 1078 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books" - 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM 1042 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM 1068 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM 1030 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM* - 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM 725 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books - 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM 975 Views
I'm relieved then... - 07/06/2010 12:13:58 PM 980 Views
it's nearly as simplistic as knowing Graendal did it - 07/06/2010 12:48:42 PM 1115 Views
Compilation of the clues I could find on Slayer and Graendal - 29/05/2010 04:26:58 PM 1270 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he. - 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM 1149 Views
That's what I've always thought as well. - 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM 1067 Views
That's always been my theory too - 29/05/2010 10:18:30 PM 1178 Views
*nods* - 29/05/2010 11:23:18 PM 1184 Views
Re: That's always been my theory too - 30/05/2010 07:35:50 AM 1105 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised"..... - 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM 1068 Views
That's why I said "I think" and offered my opinion. - 01/06/2010 09:46:09 PM 1115 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity - 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM 1085 Views
That is simply false. - 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM 1166 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only" - 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM 1239 Views
Of course, it is false - 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM 1146 Views
Here are the quotes - 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM 1077 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM 722 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to - 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM 981 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM 587 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM 778 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM 1149 Views
Well... - 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM 1138 Views
Logic - 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM 1098 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there... - 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM 1097 Views
I'm just being a smartass *NM* - 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM 750 Views
It's good that Etzel sticks to his guns - 06/06/2010 04:42:01 PM 1211 Views
OMG, Taim and Mesaana were getting it on in the pantry - 06/06/2010 09:49:57 PM 1084 Views
That reminds me... - 19/06/2010 04:46:58 AM 1098 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense. *NM* - 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM 1144 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is - 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM 1086 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM 1200 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over - 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM 1151 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful... *NM* - 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM 1197 Views
No they show that she is deliberate! - 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM 1175 Views
That are just semantics - 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM 1241 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH? - 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM 1119 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes... - 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM 1102 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point? - 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM 1164 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM 1209 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM 1177 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it... - 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM 1245 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled - 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM 1255 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said. - 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM 1004 Views
um no it's not - 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM 1091 Views
It's told after that... - 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM 1059 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place - 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM 1203 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM 1128 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ... - 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM 1131 Views
Ah, whatever... - 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM 1059 Views
We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM 1106 Views
Re: We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:52:37 PM 1191 Views
LMAO - 07/06/2010 06:07:16 PM 1548 Views
I promised Etzel long ago... - 19/06/2010 04:49:11 AM 1117 Views

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