Re: RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever *NM*
newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 28/05/2010 09:24:41 PM
Because when we have to go through stuff like this, it's Lost-level speculation. I liked that show a good bit, and even posted my opinions on certain episodes or a few theories, but I didn't really try to suss out how the relatively unimportant stuff worked out. And who killed Asmo isn't a particularly important issue, as it almost certainly won't go anywhere (e.g., involves a person who is presently sitting in Caemlyn's palace and causing trouble)...
I'd never expect to type the words in this following clause: RJ did an uncontrovertibly bad writing job once [see below], and the result has been a mystery that's engendered obsessive levels of contemplation. This shouldn't be interpreted as me saying that Etzel (who deserves credit for this) or anyone else *is* obsessive; just that the attention needed, especially considered in total, is obsessive.
Nor do I think I am superior in this regard. Although I haven't really tried a grand-Asmo theory, I have frequently pondered the killer's identity, and I've read many of the ideas posted on this topic. So it's eaten up a bit of my time too, and I now see the folly in the time wasted.
I say that RJ failed, not lightly, because our deeply-missed Author never intended to create a mystery. The fact that he felt it only required a little thought - yet it doesn't and has created a giant uncertainty in the minds of so many(!) - is all the proof that's needed to use the word "fail" comfortably (if unwillingly). Even typos slip through the cracks on a major literary work (and valuable intellectual property), everybody makes mistakes, and it's the readers who have to suffer for it. And, of course, the Author and associated staff, since they have to be pestered with a zillion questions about it.
A writer communicates ideas; communicating them well mixes with how clear or opaque a writer wishes to be in a particular instance. RJ intended this to be fairly transparent, and instead it's a great big nebulous brick wall. It sounds like a syllogism that may not be accurate at all, but still: when all facts are considered, this question is still like a black hole where you can barely definitively know *anything* about it. So I guess RJ messed up, because it's never seemed irreducibly certain. I congratulate the person who got it right; yet even s/he had to actually ask RJ to confirm their idea. So it wasn't even certain then. I sincerely hope I'm not suffering from selfishness or jealousy masquerading as reason.
For me, at least, there's two big realizations that I got from reading an intelligent second-by-second analysis of what happened to Asmo:
(a) the manner of death must've been really special for no-one to notice even a quick burst of nearby OP ("TP'd to Death" would read silly/stupid/funny), so Fain is a still a great candidate since perhaps being stabbed by his knife (or his Powers) can prevent a soul from being retrieved
and
(b) thinking about this requires too much brain power that I should put elsewhere, and I now feel badly about any extra reading I may have done on this topic.
I deeply hope that RJ and Sanderson give us an answer on the first or second page of ToM - even better if it's in the Prologue, so everyone gets the answer when the advance prologue is available on Amazon or B&N or Borders online. That way we can put aside all the hyper-observation around this topic and just enjoy the whole book a month later with this issue off our collective minds (those of us who spent serious time on this). It's getting to the point where I could almost envy the casual readers, and envy isn't a natural emotion for me.
I'd never expect to type the words in this following clause: RJ did an uncontrovertibly bad writing job once [see below], and the result has been a mystery that's engendered obsessive levels of contemplation. This shouldn't be interpreted as me saying that Etzel (who deserves credit for this) or anyone else *is* obsessive; just that the attention needed, especially considered in total, is obsessive.
Nor do I think I am superior in this regard. Although I haven't really tried a grand-Asmo theory, I have frequently pondered the killer's identity, and I've read many of the ideas posted on this topic. So it's eaten up a bit of my time too, and I now see the folly in the time wasted.
I say that RJ failed, not lightly, because our deeply-missed Author never intended to create a mystery. The fact that he felt it only required a little thought - yet it doesn't and has created a giant uncertainty in the minds of so many(!) - is all the proof that's needed to use the word "fail" comfortably (if unwillingly). Even typos slip through the cracks on a major literary work (and valuable intellectual property), everybody makes mistakes, and it's the readers who have to suffer for it. And, of course, the Author and associated staff, since they have to be pestered with a zillion questions about it.
A writer communicates ideas; communicating them well mixes with how clear or opaque a writer wishes to be in a particular instance. RJ intended this to be fairly transparent, and instead it's a great big nebulous brick wall. It sounds like a syllogism that may not be accurate at all, but still: when all facts are considered, this question is still like a black hole where you can barely definitively know *anything* about it. So I guess RJ messed up, because it's never seemed irreducibly certain. I congratulate the person who got it right; yet even s/he had to actually ask RJ to confirm their idea. So it wasn't even certain then. I sincerely hope I'm not suffering from selfishness or jealousy masquerading as reason.
For me, at least, there's two big realizations that I got from reading an intelligent second-by-second analysis of what happened to Asmo:
(a) the manner of death must've been really special for no-one to notice even a quick burst of nearby OP ("TP'd to Death" would read silly/stupid/funny), so Fain is a still a great candidate since perhaps being stabbed by his knife (or his Powers) can prevent a soul from being retrieved
and
(b) thinking about this requires too much brain power that I should put elsewhere, and I now feel badly about any extra reading I may have done on this topic.
I deeply hope that RJ and Sanderson give us an answer on the first or second page of ToM - even better if it's in the Prologue, so everyone gets the answer when the advance prologue is available on Amazon or B&N or Borders online. That way we can put aside all the hyper-observation around this topic and just enjoy the whole book a month later with this issue off our collective minds (those of us who spent serious time on this). It's getting to the point where I could almost envy the casual readers, and envy isn't a natural emotion for me.
An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds
- 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM
2712 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery....
- 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM
1420 Views
I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer...
- 28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM
1223 Views
In addition to Etzel's comments
- 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM
1086 Views
I'm pretty sure the Myrdraal that killed Caradin's family was a Proto-version of SH *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:56:58 PM
693 Views
Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin *NM*
- 29/05/2010 04:40:15 PM
670 Views
Re: Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin
- 29/05/2010 09:16:01 PM
1227 Views
Far-fetched, IMO
- 27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM
1535 Views
I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM
1216 Views
The way you twist things, it certainly seems so!
- 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM
1328 Views
Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM
1178 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM
1207 Views
The point is...
- 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM
1258 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler
- 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM
1307 Views
As is Slayer
- 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM
1175 Views
There is no evidence of this at all
- 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM
1136 Views
Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys
- 28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM
1117 Views
You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say....
- 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM
1210 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't
- 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM
1361 Views
We often see...
- 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM
1207 Views
I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious
- 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM
1294 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM
1149 Views
Well...
- 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM
1224 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM
1214 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above
- 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM
1145 Views
your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex!
- 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM
1197 Views
It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense
- 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM
1158 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM
1325 Views
No...
- 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM
1222 Views
let's try this another way
- 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM
1213 Views
The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM
1137 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM
1281 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal.
- 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM
1350 Views
RJ used the expression...
- 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM
1142 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1244 Views
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1244 Views
Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM
1198 Views
Couple of questions
- 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM
1206 Views
Be'lal managed to get out NO!
- 27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM
1051 Views
Hmmm
- 27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM
1178 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves
- 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM
1085 Views
Hmmm I wonder about that.
- 27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM
1155 Views
I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly
- 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM
1243 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM*
- 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM
604 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM
1196 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM
1174 Views
But look...
- 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM
1198 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved
- 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM
1092 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM
1162 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM
1181 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM
1214 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM
1098 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM
1162 Views
Yet Slayer is no where to be seen between his vanishing after TSR and the start of WH
- 28/05/2010 03:09:44 PM
1174 Views
???
- 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM
1133 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM
1165 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT
- 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM
937 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM
1088 Views
Re: Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM
1063 Views
But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 05:33:02 PM
1105 Views
Re: But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 07:05:27 PM
1085 Views
Re: Far-fetched, IMO
- 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM
1277 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM*
- 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM
730 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot?
- 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM
983 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM
1180 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM
1413 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM
891 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM
1309 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo.....
- 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM
1091 Views
Doesn't make sense
- 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM
1116 Views
Sorry, Lanfear did it.....
- 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM
1050 Views
Considering that RJ didn't even necessarily want to reveal it, it was pretty random, yeah. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:25:54 AM
682 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
735 Views
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
735 Views
There is a quote that refutes this...
- 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM
1162 Views
He could have recognized Moridan.....due to the True Power in his eyes.
- 29/05/2010 03:49:49 AM
1118 Views
No other Forsaken immediately recognizes Moridin as Ishy because of the saa. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:26:44 AM
686 Views
RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever
- 28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM
1189 Views
Re: RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:24:41 PM
779 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory
- 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM
1089 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer...
- 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM
1136 Views
Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that
- 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM
1111 Views
Well, I don't think so.
- 29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM
1142 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM
996 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
995 Views
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
995 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM
1058 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books"
- 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM
1021 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM
1055 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM
1009 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM*
- 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM
720 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books
- 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM
959 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he.
- 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM
1128 Views
That's what I've always thought as well.
- 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM
1050 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised".....
- 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM
1041 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity
- 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM
1069 Views
That is simply false.
- 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM
1145 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only"
- 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM
1211 Views
Of course, it is false
- 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM
1126 Views
Here are the quotes
- 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM
1062 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM
714 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to
- 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM
964 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out.
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
580 Views
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
580 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM
770 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM
1130 Views
Well...
- 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM
1123 Views
Logic
- 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM
1081 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1080 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1080 Views
I'm just being a smartass
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
742 Views
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
742 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense.
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1129 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1129 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1073 Views
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1073 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM
1180 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over
- 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM
1128 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful...
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1148 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1148 Views
No they show that she is deliberate!
- 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM
1156 Views
That are just semantics
- 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM
1225 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH?
- 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM
1104 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes...
- 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM
1079 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point?
- 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM
1149 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1193 Views
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1193 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1159 Views
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1159 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it...
- 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM
1224 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled
- 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM
1232 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said.
- 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM
984 Views
um no it's not
- 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM
1072 Views
It's told after that...
- 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM
1037 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place
- 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM
1187 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM
1116 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ...
- 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM
1110 Views
Ah, whatever...
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1037 Views
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1037 Views
We are on the exact same page
- 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM
1090 Views
