Compilation of the clues I could find on Slayer and Graendal
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 29/05/2010 04:26:58 PM
Okay I went through the first 7 books looking for any information that might lead us to the killer ... obviously nothing definitive here, but thought it was worthwhile on a dull Saturday morning...
EoTW clues:
Slayer
Isam and Luc’s childhood stories told briefly
Graendal
Hints that the Forsaken are loose but no mention
TGH
Slayer
Shadow Prophesy alluding to Isam and Luc merging into 1 being
Graendal
More hints about the Forsaken being free but nothing specific
TDR
Slayer
No mention
Graendal
No mention
TSR
Slayer
First mention of the name Slayer
We learn from the Wolves that he can enter TAR in the Flesh (by unknown means), and that he kills wolves forever when there
We learn that Lord Luc and Isam are both in the TR and learn that they are one and the same, or at least can infer from the various big hints
We know that the Myrddraal fear being found by Isam
We learn/see that at least Lord Luc is great fighter, he's been killing Myrddraal all over the TR
We learn that Fain thinks Isam is a "problem for another time"
Graendal
First onscreen mention
We learn she takes “trophies”
Misc
We learn Balefire can destroy the Forsaken
We learn that the Forsaken are not all a united front, and that even amongst the BA there are different orders being given
TFoH
Slayer
No Mention, probably off convalescing from his wounds given by Perrin in TSR
Graendal
First on screen appearance
We learn about her Slaves (Power and Beauty and the heavy use of Compulsion)
We learn that she finds it odd that the Forsaken aren’t actively trying to kill each other
We learn she thinks she is above mere humans
Graendal is aggressive enough to challenge Lanfear in front of other Forsaken and would likely use Balefire in such a fight
We learned that she had carved out a power base and would protect it rather than sitting around plotting against Rand
We learn that Asmodean knew she was in Arad Domon
We learn she pokes around in TAR, spying on the other Forsaken
We know she is aware that Asmodean is teaching Rand and that she is part of the plot to kill/control Rand that Lanfear, Sammael and Rhavin are all part of as well
LoC
Slayer
No mention
Graendal
We learn she remains in cahoots with Sammael and is giving him information on the other FS
We learn that she tends to hide things in plain sight
We learn she already knows of Lanfear and Rahvin’s deaths, and assumes Moghedien and Asmodean are also dead at Rands hands
We learn that Sammael did NOT know that Asmodean was dead
We learn that Graendal is willing to go to great lengths (go to Sharra and steal the rulers) to achieve even small goals
We learn that she hates being threatened in anyway
We learn she is frightened of Rand and will go to great lengths to avoid his detection
We learn that she was a master of mindgames and also some sort of Psychiatrist in the AoL
Misc
The DO already also knew of Asmo’s death
PoD
We learn Graendal looted Sammaels rooms in Ilian
EoTW clues:
Slayer
Isam and Luc’s childhood stories told briefly
Graendal
Hints that the Forsaken are loose but no mention
TGH
Slayer
Shadow Prophesy alluding to Isam and Luc merging into 1 being
Graendal
More hints about the Forsaken being free but nothing specific
TDR
Slayer
No mention
Graendal
No mention
TSR
Slayer
First mention of the name Slayer
We learn from the Wolves that he can enter TAR in the Flesh (by unknown means), and that he kills wolves forever when there
We learn that Lord Luc and Isam are both in the TR and learn that they are one and the same, or at least can infer from the various big hints
We know that the Myrddraal fear being found by Isam
We learn/see that at least Lord Luc is great fighter, he's been killing Myrddraal all over the TR
We learn that Fain thinks Isam is a "problem for another time"
Graendal
First onscreen mention
We learn she takes “trophies”
Misc
We learn Balefire can destroy the Forsaken
We learn that the Forsaken are not all a united front, and that even amongst the BA there are different orders being given
TFoH
Slayer
No Mention, probably off convalescing from his wounds given by Perrin in TSR
Graendal
First on screen appearance
We learn about her Slaves (Power and Beauty and the heavy use of Compulsion)
We learn that she finds it odd that the Forsaken aren’t actively trying to kill each other
We learn she thinks she is above mere humans
Graendal is aggressive enough to challenge Lanfear in front of other Forsaken and would likely use Balefire in such a fight
We learned that she had carved out a power base and would protect it rather than sitting around plotting against Rand
We learn that Asmodean knew she was in Arad Domon
We learn she pokes around in TAR, spying on the other Forsaken
We know she is aware that Asmodean is teaching Rand and that she is part of the plot to kill/control Rand that Lanfear, Sammael and Rhavin are all part of as well
LoC
Slayer
No mention
Graendal
We learn she remains in cahoots with Sammael and is giving him information on the other FS
We learn that she tends to hide things in plain sight
We learn she already knows of Lanfear and Rahvin’s deaths, and assumes Moghedien and Asmodean are also dead at Rands hands
We learn that Sammael did NOT know that Asmodean was dead
We learn that Graendal is willing to go to great lengths (go to Sharra and steal the rulers) to achieve even small goals
We learn that she hates being threatened in anyway
We learn she is frightened of Rand and will go to great lengths to avoid his detection
We learn that she was a master of mindgames and also some sort of Psychiatrist in the AoL
Misc
The DO already also knew of Asmo’s death
PoD
We learn Graendal looted Sammaels rooms in Ilian
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds
- 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM
2705 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery....
- 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM
1415 Views
I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer...
- 28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM
1216 Views
In addition to Etzel's comments
- 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM
1082 Views
I'm pretty sure the Myrdraal that killed Caradin's family was a Proto-version of SH *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:56:58 PM
690 Views
Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin *NM*
- 29/05/2010 04:40:15 PM
666 Views
Re: Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin
- 29/05/2010 09:16:01 PM
1222 Views
Far-fetched, IMO
- 27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM
1530 Views
I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM
1213 Views
The way you twist things, it certainly seems so!
- 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM
1325 Views
Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM
1174 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM
1202 Views
The point is...
- 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM
1253 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler
- 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM
1302 Views
As is Slayer
- 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM
1168 Views
There is no evidence of this at all
- 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM
1130 Views
Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys
- 28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM
1113 Views
You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say....
- 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM
1203 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't
- 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM
1356 Views
We often see...
- 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM
1202 Views
I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious
- 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM
1281 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM
1144 Views
Well...
- 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM
1220 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM
1208 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above
- 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM
1140 Views
your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex!
- 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM
1192 Views
It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense
- 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM
1148 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM
1322 Views
No...
- 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM
1216 Views
let's try this another way
- 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM
1206 Views
The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM
1133 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM
1276 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal.
- 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM
1346 Views
RJ used the expression...
- 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM
1136 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1238 Views
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1238 Views
Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM
1192 Views
Couple of questions
- 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM
1200 Views
Be'lal managed to get out NO!
- 27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM
1046 Views
Hmmm
- 27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM
1172 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves
- 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM
1081 Views
Hmmm I wonder about that.
- 27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM
1150 Views
I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly
- 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM
1237 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM*
- 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM
603 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM
1191 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM
1168 Views
But look...
- 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM
1193 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved
- 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM
1086 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM
1159 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM
1176 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM
1209 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM
1091 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM
1158 Views
Yet Slayer is no where to be seen between his vanishing after TSR and the start of WH
- 28/05/2010 03:09:44 PM
1169 Views
???
- 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM
1130 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM
1159 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT
- 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM
932 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM
1083 Views
Re: Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM
1058 Views
But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 05:33:02 PM
1098 Views
Re: But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 07:05:27 PM
1079 Views
Re: Far-fetched, IMO
- 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM
1272 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM*
- 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM
728 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot?
- 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM
978 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM
1176 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM
1409 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM
887 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM
1303 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo.....
- 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM
1088 Views
Doesn't make sense
- 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM
1111 Views
Sorry, Lanfear did it.....
- 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM
1046 Views
Considering that RJ didn't even necessarily want to reveal it, it was pretty random, yeah. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:25:54 AM
681 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
732 Views
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
732 Views
There is a quote that refutes this...
- 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM
1157 Views
He could have recognized Moridan.....due to the True Power in his eyes.
- 29/05/2010 03:49:49 AM
1110 Views
No other Forsaken immediately recognizes Moridin as Ishy because of the saa. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:26:44 AM
682 Views
RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever
- 28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM
1181 Views
Re: RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:24:41 PM
775 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory
- 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM
1081 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer...
- 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM
1131 Views
Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that
- 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM
1106 Views
Well, I don't think so.
- 29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM
1138 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM
993 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
992 Views
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
992 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM
1051 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books"
- 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM
1016 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM
1051 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM
1004 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM*
- 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM
717 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books
- 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM
951 Views
Compilation of the clues I could find on Slayer and Graendal
- 29/05/2010 04:26:58 PM
1220 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he.
- 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM
1122 Views
That's what I've always thought as well.
- 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM
1045 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised".....
- 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM
1036 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity
- 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM
1063 Views
That is simply false.
- 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM
1141 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only"
- 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM
1205 Views
Of course, it is false
- 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM
1123 Views
Here are the quotes
- 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM
1058 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM
711 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to
- 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM
957 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out.
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
577 Views
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
577 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM
769 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM
1129 Views
Well...
- 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM
1119 Views
Logic
- 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM
1078 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1077 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1077 Views
I'm just being a smartass
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
739 Views
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
739 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense.
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1124 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1124 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1069 Views
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1069 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM
1176 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over
- 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM
1123 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful...
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1140 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1140 Views
No they show that she is deliberate!
- 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM
1153 Views
That are just semantics
- 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM
1221 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH?
- 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM
1095 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes...
- 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM
1073 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point?
- 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM
1144 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1187 Views
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1187 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1153 Views
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1153 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it...
- 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM
1219 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled
- 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM
1226 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said.
- 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM
981 Views
um no it's not
- 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM
1068 Views
It's told after that...
- 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM
1034 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place
- 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM
1183 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM
1110 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ...
- 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM
1106 Views
Ah, whatever...
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1033 Views
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1033 Views
We are on the exact same page
- 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM
1088 Views
