Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations.
RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM
Linda wrote a really good entry for this on her page.
RJ's 21 level scale was primarily used to keep track of the Aes Sedai pecking order. This wasn't actually meant to accurately depict Nynaeve's real strength compared to Lanfear. Outliers are not present in any way besides placeholding on that 21 level list - because it doesn't really mean anything concrete. It was made by RJ to primarily keep track of deference, not absolute strength.
Thus, because the 21 level list was primarily used for weaker character, it makes sense that RJ imposed this list on the overall bell curve distribution in theory, because the 21 level list was just a way of getting at a subset of the population and it was all relative, anyway, so you could take members of the population present in that list, and place them in the overall bell curve. Being at the topmost level on the 21 level list, in other words, did not mean that some random character out there was much stronger than you. It merely meant that you had not met that stronger person, thus they were not present in the list.
It's apples and oranges. The bell curve is supposed to represent all possible reflections of strength, while the 21 level list was used as a means of keeping track who was stronger than who among the introduced characters. I have a ruler. I can use it to measure things between 0.1 inch and a foot. I cannot use it to measure anything above a foot, because that was not the purpose of its' design. The purpose of the 21 level list was made to keep track of a social hierarchy, not an absolute value measurable in the real world.
So, yes, strength falls along a bell curve. No, the 21 level list doesn't represent that bell curve. You can impose the 21 level list on the curve to get an idea over where particular members stood in the grand scheme of things, but the 21 level list does not conform in a 1 to 1 relationship absolute values of strength.
And I don't think strength means much anyway. You have multiple examples of "weaker" channelers with Talents that can outstrip certain things a stronger channeler can do, and stronger channelers that can't match the skills of weaker ones. Sex itself can determine how good you are at certain feats, so there are things that a Talent might make you truly exceptional at among the population as a whole (blocking gateways seems to be one of them).
RJ's 21 level scale was primarily used to keep track of the Aes Sedai pecking order. This wasn't actually meant to accurately depict Nynaeve's real strength compared to Lanfear. Outliers are not present in any way besides placeholding on that 21 level list - because it doesn't really mean anything concrete. It was made by RJ to primarily keep track of deference, not absolute strength.
The scale is not a firm indicator of the outcomes of duels. Jordan used the list mainly for ranking the average to weaker channellers: "I have said that in my notes I have such a scale that I use to keep track of everyone, but its main use is for the lesser characters, in particular Aes Sedai, so that I can check on who should defer to whom, who should only listen a little more attentively to whom, and so forth."
- Robert Jordan on his blog
- Robert Jordan on his blog
Thus, because the 21 level list was primarily used for weaker character, it makes sense that RJ imposed this list on the overall bell curve distribution in theory, because the 21 level list was just a way of getting at a subset of the population and it was all relative, anyway, so you could take members of the population present in that list, and place them in the overall bell curve. Being at the topmost level on the 21 level list, in other words, did not mean that some random character out there was much stronger than you. It merely meant that you had not met that stronger person, thus they were not present in the list.
It's apples and oranges. The bell curve is supposed to represent all possible reflections of strength, while the 21 level list was used as a means of keeping track who was stronger than who among the introduced characters. I have a ruler. I can use it to measure things between 0.1 inch and a foot. I cannot use it to measure anything above a foot, because that was not the purpose of its' design. The purpose of the 21 level list was made to keep track of a social hierarchy, not an absolute value measurable in the real world.
So, yes, strength falls along a bell curve. No, the 21 level list doesn't represent that bell curve. You can impose the 21 level list on the curve to get an idea over where particular members stood in the grand scheme of things, but the 21 level list does not conform in a 1 to 1 relationship absolute values of strength.
And I don't think strength means much anyway. You have multiple examples of "weaker" channelers with Talents that can outstrip certain things a stronger channeler can do, and stronger channelers that can't match the skills of weaker ones. Sex itself can determine how good you are at certain feats, so there are things that a Talent might make you truly exceptional at among the population as a whole (blocking gateways seems to be one of them).
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
This message last edited by RugbyPlayingAshaman on 11/06/2010 at 12:52:27 AM
Several good MAFOs from Dragonmount
10/06/2010 07:07:55 PM
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Maria's answer to question 20 is ground-breaking!
10/06/2010 07:36:40 PM
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No, it merely means that the Bell Curve does not refer to absolute strength...
10/06/2010 07:42:31 PM
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See the question again man!
10/06/2010 07:48:57 PM
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That contradicts your assertion that Moiraine is stronger than the average woman...
10/06/2010 07:50:11 PM
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I need to re-evaluate nothing!
10/06/2010 07:46:20 PM
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Think logically for a moment...
10/06/2010 07:49:10 PM
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Who said Egwene is twice as strong as Moiraine?
10/06/2010 07:52:27 PM
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Aviendha did in FoH...
10/06/2010 07:54:32 PM
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Nope!
10/06/2010 07:55:55 PM
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Your quotes are faulty
10/06/2010 07:57:18 PM
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In what sense though?
10/06/2010 07:59:00 PM
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Forkroot
10/06/2010 08:04:50 PM
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Again... later that night?
10/06/2010 08:05:39 PM
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What do you mean?
10/06/2010 08:07:24 PM
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See below...
10/06/2010 08:11:24 PM
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Re: See below...
10/06/2010 08:12:34 PM
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I just did.
10/06/2010 08:16:09 PM
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Well then we disagree
10/06/2010 08:18:10 PM
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BUT WHAT ABOUT LATER IN THE NIGHT!
10/06/2010 08:20:21 PM
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Ah, you mean later later ...
10/06/2010 08:29:59 PM
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Forkroot wears off, you know?
10/06/2010 08:45:33 PM
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Yes I know
10/06/2010 09:05:29 PM
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I've explained it before in this thread...
10/06/2010 09:17:10 PM
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Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
10/06/2010 09:37:39 PM
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Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
10/06/2010 09:51:40 PM
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Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
10/06/2010 10:05:37 PM
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Are you sure you're feeling fine?
10/06/2010 10:18:44 PM
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RJ writes that Amys cannot hold Egwene. BS writes that Barasene can. Who are you gonna believe?
10/06/2010 08:31:35 PM
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It wasn't BS... both were RJ!
10/06/2010 08:41:54 PM
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In that case, there is no problem...
10/06/2010 08:45:05 PM
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But that isn't what the text says...
10/06/2010 08:57:42 PM
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How can Egwene be strong enough to overcome Katerine and Silviana together then?
10/06/2010 09:07:36 PM
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Yeah, both were RJ
10/06/2010 08:49:13 PM
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Yeah yeah... RJ lied, Maria lied. Only you make sense. I'm finished with this debate.
10/06/2010 08:59:06 PM
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10/06/2010 09:07:52 PM
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Really?
10/06/2010 09:29:22 PM
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Re: Really?
10/06/2010 09:39:21 PM
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Here's what is clear:
10/06/2010 09:02:41 PM
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IMO it's easy to disprove
10/06/2010 09:22:23 PM
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Dude...
10/06/2010 09:27:34 PM
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At least we agree on one thing
10/06/2010 09:29:14 PM
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yet 4 women can still hold Rand in LoC ... he can't break the Shield until it's down to 3
13/06/2010 12:47:43 PM
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Have to agree with Sidious on this point
11/06/2010 02:49:58 AM
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The rate forkroot wears off?
16/06/2010 12:36:38 PM
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You missed that she isn't being given Forkroot at night at all!
16/06/2010 04:47:59 PM
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Maria's other answer adresses this...
10/06/2010 08:14:54 PM
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Then one Aes Sedai cannot shield her. But one did.
10/06/2010 08:16:41 PM
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You can be much weaker than someone, and hold them shielded, if they are already cut off...
10/06/2010 08:19:15 PM
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But, if you are much stronger, you can break that shield...
10/06/2010 08:22:25 PM
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Easy...
10/06/2010 08:24:59 PM
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What has that got to do with it?
10/06/2010 08:32:56 PM
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Amys is not LESS than half of Egwene's strength. You cannot hold someone if you are LESS than half..
10/06/2010 08:47:41 PM
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Amys is as strong as Moiraine, at the most one level lower. Barasine is weaker than Katarine, who...
10/06/2010 09:00:26 PM
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I can agree with that.
10/06/2010 09:09:07 PM
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...
10/06/2010 09:12:21 PM
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Agreed, but...
10/06/2010 09:13:59 PM
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Re: Agreed, but...
10/06/2010 09:16:30 PM
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Good point...
10/06/2010 09:18:53 PM
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Or, you know, you can have the grace to question your antiquated strength list...
10/06/2010 09:22:51 PM
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I'd be perfectly happy to adjust my list if it made sense
10/06/2010 09:32:35 PM
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Uhhh?
10/06/2010 09:41:59 PM
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Re: Uhhh?
10/06/2010 09:48:58 PM
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DUDE!
10/06/2010 09:58:59 PM
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Rand seems to shield Egwene and Elayne TOGETHER, pretty easily...
10/06/2010 09:54:03 PM
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That's fairly simple, actually...
10/06/2010 10:08:53 PM
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Nope. Rand was also cut off from the Source when he broke a shield held by 3 Aes Sedai...
10/06/2010 11:18:41 PM
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Because that channeler is much stronger? I'm not getting your confusion here. *NM*
10/06/2010 11:27:31 PM
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Your Aes Sedai are close to the average woman in strength, right...
10/06/2010 11:42:01 PM
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No, here's the quote: I hate having to pull out my books with their yellowed pages...
10/06/2010 08:01:54 PM
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Why would she need surprise against two? That was against five of them...
10/06/2010 08:04:57 PM
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Very poor evidence
10/06/2010 08:11:26 PM
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no she said Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined
11/06/2010 12:46:29 AM
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The actual quote says Amys and Melaine combined...
11/06/2010 12:25:07 PM
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Here's the problem with that...
11/06/2010 12:42:41 PM
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I think you are misreading her.
10/06/2010 07:47:06 PM
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Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. *NM*
10/06/2010 09:23:36 PM
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Re: Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution.
10/06/2010 10:11:23 PM
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Yes. You can't extrapolate a generalized macro level scale to micro level individuals.
11/06/2010 12:16:24 AM
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I don't agree
10/06/2010 07:49:41 PM
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BAH! Its infuriating how you have so many blinders... Eerily Aes Sedai of you.
10/06/2010 07:54:23 PM
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Hmm...
10/06/2010 07:55:59 PM
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Because of the question to which she responded...
10/06/2010 07:57:55 PM
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Re: Because of the question to which she responded...
10/06/2010 08:06:16 PM
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Without contradicting the latter...
10/06/2010 08:15:11 PM
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Ah well
10/06/2010 08:20:32 PM
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Great! Two of my OP strength ideas have been solidified!
10/06/2010 07:39:53 PM
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Nope...
10/06/2010 07:46:31 PM
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Who said Cadsuane was 50?
10/06/2010 07:51:14 PM
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So how can Egwene be twice as strong as Moiraine, if Moiraine is at 55?
10/06/2010 07:53:11 PM
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She cannot be because she isn't. Silviana can shield Egwene alone, for God's sake. So can Amys!
10/06/2010 07:56:26 PM
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Amys can't hold her properly
10/06/2010 07:59:47 PM
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What about later that night?
10/06/2010 08:02:16 PM
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No she didn't
16/06/2010 03:02:21 PM
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No she didn't what?
16/06/2010 04:46:05 PM
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Re: No she didn't what?
17/06/2010 06:16:16 AM
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Why do you think it's a linear scale?
16/06/2010 05:25:56 AM
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That's simple...
16/06/2010 06:36:44 AM
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Re: That's simple...
16/06/2010 12:27:07 PM
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Your concept is not mathematically right. So yeah, forget discussing it.
16/06/2010 04:41:13 PM
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Dang, Cyndane isn't using Cabriana's body.
10/06/2010 08:25:20 PM
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The blue flash RAFO irritates me- I can't see how that will be relevant. The Min thing was new
10/06/2010 08:50:52 PM
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RJ already RAFOed the incident with Thom's knives/daggers before
10/06/2010 08:57:52 PM
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It isn't, unless she's implying the Creator helped him out or some other such thing
11/06/2010 12:56:49 AM
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Just to make things clear on the strength thing...
10/06/2010 09:08:02 PM
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It is possible Maria was answering the first question and ignoring the second...
10/06/2010 09:29:59 PM
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That still proves my point...
10/06/2010 09:33:10 PM
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Re: That still proves my point...
10/06/2010 09:45:39 PM
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Then why...
10/06/2010 10:00:00 PM
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Re: Then why...
10/06/2010 10:07:56 PM
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God, what stupidity!
10/06/2010 10:10:32 PM
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Re: God, what stupidity!
10/06/2010 10:16:38 PM
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It doesn't have to be 1-100.
10/06/2010 10:32:17 PM
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Re: It doesn't have to be 1-100.
10/06/2010 10:41:02 PM
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That's a mathematical impossibility...
10/06/2010 11:26:23 PM
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Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations.
11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM
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You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
11/06/2010 12:25:05 AM
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Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
11/06/2010 03:22:53 AM
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Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
11/06/2010 12:29:37 PM
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I agree
11/06/2010 01:14:36 PM
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Re: I agree
12/06/2010 03:02:32 PM
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BS didn't answer with "Read and find out"
12/06/2010 03:28:05 PM
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We were speaking about Maria giving a RAFO on the topic, not Sanderson. *NM*
13/06/2010 12:05:17 AM
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Actually she said "No"...
*NM*
13/06/2010 01:06:18 AM
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I'll rephrase then. It was about Maria saying that she considered giving a RAFO on the question.
13/06/2010 01:44:19 AM
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Eh, practically useless.
14/06/2010 11:50:06 PM
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I agree. I think she is saving the good stuff for the encyclopedia. *NM*
15/06/2010 04:17:07 PM
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Yeah. I do think she's taking advantage of these poor saps, though.
17/06/2010 03:52:33 PM
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