Active Users:389 Time:17/09/2025 12:57:59 PM
Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations. RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM
Linda wrote a really good entry for this on her page.

RJ's 21 level scale was primarily used to keep track of the Aes Sedai pecking order. This wasn't actually meant to accurately depict Nynaeve's real strength compared to Lanfear. Outliers are not present in any way besides placeholding on that 21 level list - because it doesn't really mean anything concrete. It was made by RJ to primarily keep track of deference, not absolute strength.

The scale is not a firm indicator of the outcomes of duels. Jordan used the list mainly for ranking the average to weaker channellers: "I have said that in my notes I have such a scale that I use to keep track of everyone, but its main use is for the lesser characters, in particular Aes Sedai, so that I can check on who should defer to whom, who should only listen a little more attentively to whom, and so forth."

- Robert Jordan on his blog


Thus, because the 21 level list was primarily used for weaker character, it makes sense that RJ imposed this list on the overall bell curve distribution in theory, because the 21 level list was just a way of getting at a subset of the population and it was all relative, anyway, so you could take members of the population present in that list, and place them in the overall bell curve. Being at the topmost level on the 21 level list, in other words, did not mean that some random character out there was much stronger than you. It merely meant that you had not met that stronger person, thus they were not present in the list.

It's apples and oranges. The bell curve is supposed to represent all possible reflections of strength, while the 21 level list was used as a means of keeping track who was stronger than who among the introduced characters. I have a ruler. I can use it to measure things between 0.1 inch and a foot. I cannot use it to measure anything above a foot, because that was not the purpose of its' design. The purpose of the 21 level list was made to keep track of a social hierarchy, not an absolute value measurable in the real world.

So, yes, strength falls along a bell curve. No, the 21 level list doesn't represent that bell curve. You can impose the 21 level list on the curve to get an idea over where particular members stood in the grand scheme of things, but the 21 level list does not conform in a 1 to 1 relationship absolute values of strength.

And I don't think strength means much anyway. You have multiple examples of "weaker" channelers with Talents that can outstrip certain things a stronger channeler can do, and stronger channelers that can't match the skills of weaker ones. Sex itself can determine how good you are at certain feats, so there are things that a Talent might make you truly exceptional at among the population as a whole (blocking gateways seems to be one of them).
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
Linda's Article on the Saidar Strength Ranking on the 13th Depository
This message last edited by RugbyPlayingAshaman on 11/06/2010 at 12:52:27 AM
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Several good MAFOs from Dragonmount - 10/06/2010 07:07:55 PM 2345 Views
Some good RAFOs here - 10/06/2010 07:31:56 PM 1093 Views
Yeah... - 10/06/2010 07:36:55 PM 984 Views
Maria's answer to question 20 is ground-breaking! - 10/06/2010 07:36:40 PM 1286 Views
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See the question again man! - 10/06/2010 07:48:57 PM 1104 Views
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How? - 10/06/2010 07:54:41 PM 1127 Views
I need to re-evaluate nothing! - 10/06/2010 07:46:20 PM 1128 Views
Think logically for a moment... - 10/06/2010 07:49:10 PM 957 Views
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Aviendha did in FoH... - 10/06/2010 07:54:32 PM 942 Views
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In what sense though? - 10/06/2010 07:59:00 PM 1108 Views
Forkroot - 10/06/2010 08:04:50 PM 1068 Views
Again... later that night? - 10/06/2010 08:05:39 PM 922 Views
What do you mean? - 10/06/2010 08:07:24 PM 1104 Views
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Re: See below... - 10/06/2010 08:12:34 PM 1050 Views
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BUT WHAT ABOUT LATER IN THE NIGHT! - 10/06/2010 08:20:21 PM 924 Views
Ah, you mean later later ... - 10/06/2010 08:29:59 PM 1030 Views
Forkroot wears off, you know? - 10/06/2010 08:45:33 PM 1124 Views
Yes I know - 10/06/2010 09:05:29 PM 1124 Views
I've explained it before in this thread... - 10/06/2010 09:17:10 PM 1097 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... - 10/06/2010 09:37:39 PM 1095 Views
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Re: I've explained it before in this thread... - 10/06/2010 10:05:37 PM 1070 Views
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Re: Are you sure you're feeling fine? - 10/06/2010 10:47:00 PM 1015 Views
RJ writes that Amys cannot hold Egwene. BS writes that Barasene can. Who are you gonna believe? - 10/06/2010 08:31:35 PM 938 Views
It wasn't BS... both were RJ! - 10/06/2010 08:41:54 PM 1028 Views
In that case, there is no problem... - 10/06/2010 08:45:05 PM 1169 Views
But that isn't what the text says... - 10/06/2010 08:57:42 PM 894 Views
How can Egwene be strong enough to overcome Katerine and Silviana together then? - 10/06/2010 09:07:36 PM 1137 Views
She also says Egwene is Aes Sedai in the same sentence... - 10/06/2010 09:25:16 PM 1158 Views
Yeah, both were RJ - 10/06/2010 08:49:13 PM 1009 Views
Yeah yeah... RJ lied, Maria lied. Only you make sense. I'm finished with this debate. - 10/06/2010 08:59:06 PM 1098 Views
- 10/06/2010 09:07:52 PM 1091 Views
Really? - 10/06/2010 09:29:22 PM 958 Views
Re: Really? - 10/06/2010 09:39:21 PM 1060 Views
Re: Really? - 10/06/2010 09:43:41 PM 942 Views
Re: Really? - 10/06/2010 09:50:23 PM 1102 Views
I haven't refuted? - 10/06/2010 09:53:17 PM 1144 Views
Here's what is clear: - 10/06/2010 09:02:41 PM 1001 Views
IMO it's easy to disprove - 10/06/2010 09:22:23 PM 984 Views
Dude... - 10/06/2010 09:27:34 PM 893 Views
At least we agree on one thing - 10/06/2010 09:29:14 PM 1006 Views
No... - 10/06/2010 09:32:06 PM 964 Views
Re: No... - 10/06/2010 09:43:59 PM 1084 Views
- 10/06/2010 09:57:25 PM 937 Views
Re: - 10/06/2010 10:12:29 PM 1029 Views
Re: - 10/06/2010 10:34:28 PM 1037 Views
Thought on this - 13/06/2010 01:09:29 PM 947 Views
Have to agree with Sidious on this point - 11/06/2010 02:49:58 AM 931 Views
That was kind of my point... - 11/06/2010 12:19:23 PM 666 Views
of course Katerine would have complained - 12/06/2010 12:53:31 PM 1054 Views
The rate forkroot wears off? - 16/06/2010 12:36:38 PM 1049 Views
You missed that she isn't being given Forkroot at night at all! - 16/06/2010 04:47:59 PM 950 Views
Typos, screwed up what I meant - 17/06/2010 02:31:50 AM 960 Views
You are... - 17/06/2010 04:32:47 AM 1180 Views
Maria's other answer adresses this... - 10/06/2010 08:14:54 PM 839 Views
Then one Aes Sedai cannot shield her. But one did. - 10/06/2010 08:16:41 PM 957 Views
You can be much weaker than someone, and hold them shielded, if they are already cut off... - 10/06/2010 08:19:15 PM 941 Views
But, if you are much stronger, you can break that shield... - 10/06/2010 08:22:25 PM 951 Views
Easy... - 10/06/2010 08:24:59 PM 915 Views
What has that got to do with it? - 10/06/2010 08:32:56 PM 1101 Views
Amys is not LESS than half of Egwene's strength. You cannot hold someone if you are LESS than half.. - 10/06/2010 08:47:41 PM 1011 Views
Amys is as strong as Moiraine, at the most one level lower. Barasine is weaker than Katarine, who... - 10/06/2010 09:00:26 PM 1144 Views
I can agree with that. - 10/06/2010 09:09:07 PM 901 Views
How can you agree with it? - 10/06/2010 09:13:55 PM 1106 Views
I'm thinking Berowin here... - 10/06/2010 09:16:41 PM 1106 Views
Exactly. - 10/06/2010 09:18:19 PM 969 Views
... - 10/06/2010 09:12:21 PM 901 Views
Agreed, but... - 10/06/2010 09:13:59 PM 1057 Views
Re: Agreed, but... - 10/06/2010 09:16:30 PM 859 Views
Good point... - 10/06/2010 09:18:53 PM 1065 Views
Or, you know, you're wrong? - 10/06/2010 09:27:55 PM 935 Views
Re: Good point... - 10/06/2010 09:28:02 PM 1141 Views
We've had this discussion before - 13/06/2010 01:59:34 PM 1053 Views
Or, you know, you can have the grace to question your antiquated strength list... - 10/06/2010 09:22:51 PM 931 Views
The Bell Curve fits perfectly if one simple fact is true... - 10/06/2010 09:31:31 PM 886 Views
Or, you know, you can stop misinterpreting Aviendha... - 10/06/2010 09:40:05 PM 1015 Views
I'd be perfectly happy to adjust my list if it made sense - 10/06/2010 09:32:35 PM 876 Views
Uhhh? - 10/06/2010 09:41:59 PM 877 Views
Re: Uhhh? - 10/06/2010 09:48:58 PM 879 Views
DUDE! - 10/06/2010 09:58:59 PM 909 Views
Re: DUDE! - 10/06/2010 10:09:11 PM 881 Views
I explained... - 10/06/2010 10:27:44 PM 892 Views
Re: I explained... - 10/06/2010 10:45:58 PM 1045 Views
Rand seems to shield Egwene and Elayne TOGETHER, pretty easily... - 10/06/2010 09:54:03 PM 1550 Views
That's fairly simple, actually... - 10/06/2010 10:08:53 PM 1128 Views
Nope. Rand was also cut off from the Source when he broke a shield held by 3 Aes Sedai... - 10/06/2010 11:18:41 PM 1085 Views
Because that channeler is much stronger? I'm not getting your confusion here. *NM* - 10/06/2010 11:27:31 PM 524 Views
Your Aes Sedai are close to the average woman in strength, right... - 10/06/2010 11:42:01 PM 1151 Views
You are making a couple of mistakes - 13/06/2010 02:28:41 PM 997 Views
You're missing an important point... - 14/06/2010 11:10:55 PM 997 Views
Yes, what do you mean? You are actually proving our point... - 10/06/2010 08:10:50 PM 861 Views
No, here's the quote: I hate having to pull out my books with their yellowed pages... - 10/06/2010 08:01:54 PM 921 Views
Why would she need surprise against two? That was against five of them... - 10/06/2010 08:04:57 PM 938 Views
That makes no sense whatsoever... - 10/06/2010 08:06:53 PM 908 Views
Simply this... - 10/06/2010 08:13:42 PM 930 Views
Very poor evidence - 10/06/2010 08:11:26 PM 1057 Views
No it isn't... - 10/06/2010 08:18:09 PM 1007 Views
Re: No it isn't... - 10/06/2010 08:32:17 PM 1085 Views
no she said Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined - 11/06/2010 12:46:29 AM 1003 Views
The actual quote says Amys and Melaine combined... - 11/06/2010 12:25:07 PM 1048 Views
Here's the problem with that... - 11/06/2010 12:42:41 PM 912 Views
Linked circles are more effective than individual channelers... - 11/06/2010 01:57:43 PM 1009 Views
That much stronger? - 14/06/2010 11:06:18 PM 1074 Views
On this we agree. - 13/06/2010 02:34:45 PM 887 Views
I think you are misreading her. - 10/06/2010 07:47:06 PM 876 Views
Bingo *NM* - 10/06/2010 07:51:29 PM 612 Views
Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. *NM* - 10/06/2010 09:23:36 PM 560 Views
Re: Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. - 10/06/2010 10:11:23 PM 1105 Views
I don't agree - 10/06/2010 07:49:41 PM 924 Views
BAH! Its infuriating how you have so many blinders... Eerily Aes Sedai of you. - 10/06/2010 07:54:23 PM 1127 Views
Hmm... - 10/06/2010 07:55:59 PM 863 Views
Because of the question to which she responded... - 10/06/2010 07:57:55 PM 871 Views
Re: Because of the question to which she responded... - 10/06/2010 08:06:16 PM 1028 Views
Without contradicting the latter... - 10/06/2010 08:15:11 PM 909 Views
Ah well - 10/06/2010 08:20:32 PM 904 Views
Which is even more evidence... - 10/06/2010 08:23:28 PM 989 Views
Dude - 10/06/2010 08:30:57 PM 1099 Views
It isn't omission - 14/06/2010 10:54:47 PM 1060 Views
omg not this again *NM* - 10/06/2010 07:52:26 PM 1021 Views
Great! Two of my OP strength ideas have been solidified! - 10/06/2010 07:39:53 PM 1133 Views
Nope... - 10/06/2010 07:46:31 PM 988 Views
Who said Cadsuane was 50? - 10/06/2010 07:51:14 PM 1025 Views
So how can Egwene be twice as strong as Moiraine, if Moiraine is at 55? - 10/06/2010 07:53:11 PM 891 Views
She cannot be because she isn't. Silviana can shield Egwene alone, for God's sake. So can Amys! - 10/06/2010 07:56:26 PM 839 Views
Amys can't hold her properly - 10/06/2010 07:59:47 PM 870 Views
What about later that night? - 10/06/2010 08:02:16 PM 874 Views
No she didn't - 16/06/2010 03:02:21 PM 994 Views
No she didn't what? - 16/06/2010 04:46:05 PM 1036 Views
Re: No she didn't what? - 17/06/2010 06:16:16 AM 882 Views
Re: No she didn't what? - 17/06/2010 06:02:57 PM 1027 Views
you are arguing in a circle - 17/06/2010 06:31:19 PM 1356 Views
Why do you think it's a linear scale? - 16/06/2010 05:25:56 AM 1003 Views
That's simple... - 16/06/2010 06:36:44 AM 951 Views
Re: That's simple... - 16/06/2010 12:27:07 PM 906 Views
Your concept is not mathematically right. So yeah, forget discussing it. - 16/06/2010 04:41:13 PM 1092 Views
Dang, Cyndane isn't using Cabriana's body. - 10/06/2010 08:25:20 PM 943 Views
But they didn't look alike anyway. *NM* - 10/06/2010 08:59:35 PM 605 Views
Eh, yeah. - 12/06/2010 08:24:10 PM 895 Views
The blue flash RAFO irritates me- I can't see how that will be relevant. The Min thing was new - 10/06/2010 08:50:52 PM 1073 Views
RJ already RAFOed the incident with Thom's knives/daggers before - 10/06/2010 08:57:52 PM 1155 Views
They RAFO way too much. - 11/06/2010 12:25:56 AM 878 Views
It isn't, unless she's implying the Creator helped him out or some other such thing - 11/06/2010 12:56:49 AM 902 Views
Just to make things clear on the strength thing... - 10/06/2010 09:08:02 PM 1184 Views
It is possible Maria was answering the first question and ignoring the second... - 10/06/2010 09:29:59 PM 910 Views
That still proves my point... - 10/06/2010 09:33:10 PM 1082 Views
Re: That still proves my point... - 10/06/2010 09:45:39 PM 952 Views
Then why... - 10/06/2010 10:00:00 PM 1034 Views
Re: Then why... - 10/06/2010 10:07:56 PM 909 Views
God, what stupidity! - 10/06/2010 10:10:32 PM 900 Views
Re: God, what stupidity! - 10/06/2010 10:16:38 PM 1000 Views
It doesn't have to be 1-100. - 10/06/2010 10:32:17 PM 947 Views
Re: It doesn't have to be 1-100. - 10/06/2010 10:41:02 PM 1227 Views
That's a mathematical impossibility... - 10/06/2010 11:26:23 PM 1066 Views
Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations. - 11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM 990 Views
You're pretty much agreeing with me, you know? - 11/06/2010 12:32:44 PM 960 Views
Yes. - 14/06/2010 10:31:00 PM 1074 Views
Re: Just to make things clear on the strength thing... - 14/06/2010 11:21:31 PM 1291 Views
Huh? - 14/06/2010 11:48:43 PM 881 Views
Also interesting... - 10/06/2010 09:38:27 PM 1025 Views
I'm even more confused (parallel worlds and the Pattern) - 10/06/2010 09:48:17 PM 995 Views
Nah,... - 11/06/2010 11:38:20 AM 977 Views
Fascinating! - 13/06/2010 02:30:42 AM 1069 Views
You know, these things always end up pissing me off. - 11/06/2010 12:25:05 AM 978 Views
I think she's saving that info for her WoT Encyclopedia. - 11/06/2010 12:54:38 AM 1040 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off. - 11/06/2010 03:22:53 AM 1091 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off. - 11/06/2010 12:29:37 PM 1017 Views
I agree - 11/06/2010 01:14:36 PM 1130 Views
Re: I agree - 12/06/2010 03:02:32 PM 914 Views
BS didn't answer with "Read and find out" - 12/06/2010 03:28:05 PM 951 Views
We were speaking about Maria giving a RAFO on the topic, not Sanderson. *NM* - 13/06/2010 12:05:17 AM 540 Views
Actually she said "No"... *NM* - 13/06/2010 01:06:18 AM 632 Views
I agree with Jack and Sidious and not with you. - 11/06/2010 03:20:30 PM 1068 Views
Well, on the Thom question... - 11/06/2010 08:25:09 AM 934 Views
Yeah - 11/06/2010 08:26:33 AM 1043 Views
Re: Yeah - 15/06/2010 12:25:21 AM 897 Views
Eh, practically useless. - 14/06/2010 11:50:06 PM 905 Views
I agree. I think she is saving the good stuff for the encyclopedia. *NM* - 15/06/2010 04:17:07 PM 505 Views
Yeah. I do think she's taking advantage of these poor saps, though. - 17/06/2010 03:52:33 PM 1484 Views

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