Active Users:390 Time:17/09/2025 07:51:42 AM
Fair point. Shannow Send a noteboard - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM

I think its pretty clear that Aran'gar was holding saidin if she gasped. It's a recurrent reaction we've seen when a channeler is suddenly shielded and loses their connection with the Source.

I also don't think that strength is a primary determinant here. Graendal is immensely skilled. Aran'gar was facing the window and unprepared. We know that channelers can shield one another if they are of equal strength. IMO Graendal is stronger or equal to her and overwhelmed her with sheer speed and surprise. Whether she used the angreal is difficult say, but the author usually mentions if a channeler pulls through one.

We also don't know whether she shielded Delana and Aran'gar at the exact same time, or did it quickly and sequentially. She's certainly fast enough to pull off two shields that look like a single weaving.

Anyway, I don't find it a big stretch for a female Forsaken to shield a male. I think it's been a well established fact that the females are close to the males in strength, and Graendal is near to the top of all channeling strengths.


If it was that easy for Graendal to incapacitate Balthamel (and an Aes Sedai at the same time), then the Moghediens, Mesaanas, Asmodeans etc. of this world would not have existed for very long.

Not to mention what more powerful channelers than Graendal (Ishamael, Cyndane, Lanfear etc) could have done to them.

I mean, Rand himself said that just shielding two normal Aes Sedai is no trifling matter of the Power, let alone shielding a Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time.

Anyway, I just question what this would imply for the ability of weaker members of the Forsaken to survive for any length of time.



But it is that easy. It's been made clear on several occasions that the Forsaken are at maximum readiness while they're around each other. Even very powerful Forsaken like Sammael, Lanfear and Rahvin fill themselves to the brim with the One Power when they're around each other. They prepare counter weaves and hold them in place and watch each other intently. It only takes one slip, and I do believe Aran'gar may be the first true example of this that we've seen in the series. She did the worst thing possible - she allowed herself to be distracted by Rand, turned away and allowed Graendal to be placed behind her. Such a small thing is all that was needed for Graendal to have the upper hand, and ultimately led to Aran'gar's downfall. I do think that many Forsaken fell in such a casual manner, which is why channelers like the Forsaken survived. They never ever let their guard down. It must be very stressful.

If they're ready around each other, then none of these Forsaken can take each other on, but even Rahvin alluded to the danger of having Lanfear behind him. He could very easily have died in that scene had Lanfear not wished to speak with him. He didn't even know she was there until she spoke. Aran'gar is the end-point of what I've always suspected would happen to someone like that if they became too comfortable around Graendal.


Having not read the scene, I am largely speaking on hearsay. But it makes sense. It's like a bunch of guys who all carry guns. If one gets the drop on the other, it's over rover.
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 8962 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2537 Views
A dove, that's weird - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 2293 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 2241 Views
Yes, that's the point - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 2096 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 2216 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 2338 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1383 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2412 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1279 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1263 Views
I love the borderlanders - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 2283 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1328 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1248 Views
I posted some links here - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 2142 Views
My quick summary - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 2928 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 2008 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2323 Views
Awesome! - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 2091 Views
Regarding Graendal - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2593 Views
Some things... - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 2155 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 2099 Views
a very weak angreal - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 2100 Views
Even a weak angreal - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 2050 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 1936 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 2172 Views
Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 2045 Views
Re: Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 1878 Views
Audio Book - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 2000 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 2205 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 2112 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 1925 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 2034 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 2023 Views
I think so, yes. - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 1962 Views
I don't think so actually - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 2059 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 1983 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 1105 Views
no she wasn't *NM* - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1209 Views
nope, no power - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1860 Views
So here's what happens... - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2391 Views
Thanks. A few comments... - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 1881 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 1905 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 2058 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 1897 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 1937 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1778 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 1877 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 1906 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 1920 Views
How did she know there was a shield? - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 1884 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1854 Views
Who said "they"? - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1848 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1805 Views
Provide evidence? - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1862 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1777 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1851 Views
Alright, you win *NM* - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1150 Views
*NM* - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 1011 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1756 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 2000 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2801 Views
So? - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1690 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1784 Views
Nice catches! - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 1900 Views
we don't know that - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1846 Views
Huh? - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1774 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1830 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1731 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1845 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1821 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 1954 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3858 Views
Well... - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1873 Views
She says... - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1874 Views
no one is arguing that - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1832 Views
Er... - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1788 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2611 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2574 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1846 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 1910 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1822 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1817 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 1948 Views
Really? - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 1895 Views
Re: Really? - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1770 Views
That's my point *NM* - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1145 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1178 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1153 Views
Re: She says... - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1836 Views
Exactly. - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1799 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1784 Views
Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 1912 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1781 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1774 Views
Nope - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1678 Views
Re: Nope - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1833 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 1942 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1843 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1709 Views
Well... - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 1905 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 2030 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1870 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 1997 Views
Oh come on.. be real - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1783 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1874 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1803 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1822 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1190 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1136 Views
Well, exactly! - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1856 Views
What I think happened - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1812 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1785 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 1875 Views
Fair point. - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1839 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1867 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1786 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 2896 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3321 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1770 Views
she never shielded them - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1784 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1732 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1862 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1793 Views
LMAO... nice! - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1799 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 1881 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1713 Views
I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 1860 Views
Re: I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1711 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1789 Views
Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1784 Views
Re: Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1746 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1797 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1828 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 1940 Views
*NM* - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 1102 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 2053 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 2076 Views
For the record - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 1978 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1849 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 1912 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 2048 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1158 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1210 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1814 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1165 Views
I tend to agree - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1836 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2465 Views
Yes, but its still a little off - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1873 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 2035 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 1931 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 2008 Views
She was really surprised and scared. - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 1961 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1846 Views
Quite a bit... - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 2011 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 2054 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 1121 Views
Second best prologue ever... - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 2240 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1877 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 1919 Views
Aran'gar is a tool - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 2053 Views
Yes. s/He was. - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1890 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 2044 Views
- 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 1956 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 1988 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 1917 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2605 Views
I had a similar thought, but... - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 1902 Views
Probably not Sanderson - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 1939 Views
No way - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1847 Views
I agree. *NM* - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1172 Views
A few nits - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1855 Views
Canadian Download site - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2379 Views

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