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Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM

1. Graendal's "weak" angreal was strong enough that with less than half of its power she could shield Cyndane (who is stronger than her) and Moghedien at the same time. So it makes shielding Arangar and Delana pretty inconsequential by comparison.

She compelled them, she didn't shield them. And she said she didn't even need the angreal to do it, she just drew on it because she was that pissed.

2. Because of the presence of the angreal - which she ALWAYS wears on her finger, any other conclusions are meaningless.

But because it was never even mentioned once, and she said she lost some priceless OP objects in Rand's attack, we cannot assume she had it.
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 9136 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! PatAtt - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2565 Views
A dove, that's weird BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 2332 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 2277 Views
Yes, that's the point BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 2128 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 2260 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM 1302 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 2382 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1414 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2450 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1309 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* Yuri - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1278 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM* RandAllThor - 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM 1304 Views
I love the borderlanders PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 2328 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1358 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* Guava - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1282 Views
I posted some links here PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 2183 Views
My quick summary PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 2991 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. DREWRULESWOT! - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 2044 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2355 Views
Awesome! Ryan - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 2123 Views
Regarding Graendal Sidious - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2641 Views
Some things... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 2197 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 2142 Views
a very weak angreal darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 2156 Views
Even a weak angreal malekithe - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 2109 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 1986 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM 2125 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream Syraelle - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 2212 Views
Probably Slayer RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 2091 Views
Re: Probably Slayer Syraelle - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 1922 Views
Audio Book Matt_at_Heart - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 2047 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... Shannow - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 2263 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 2150 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 1982 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 2070 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 2064 Views
I think so, yes. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 2011 Views
I don't think so actually darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 2107 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 2025 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 1128 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM 1921 Views
no she wasn't *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1235 Views
nope, no power newyorkersedai - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1892 Views
So here's what happens... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2447 Views
Thanks. A few comments... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 1930 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 1947 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 2084 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 1935 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 1976 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1825 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 1928 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 1936 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 1964 Views
How did she know there was a shield? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 1924 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1903 Views
Who said "they"? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1881 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe Shannow - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM 1954 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM 1898 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1844 Views
Provide evidence? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1914 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1830 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1897 Views
Alright, you win *NM* Deadsy - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1180 Views
*NM* fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 1027 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1793 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 2039 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2839 Views
So? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1723 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source Mik - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1824 Views
Nice catches! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 1957 Views
we don't know that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1886 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1810 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... Mik - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1871 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1771 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1894 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1857 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 2003 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3892 Views
Well... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1909 Views
She says... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1906 Views
no one is arguing that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1874 Views
Er... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1832 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2656 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2610 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1887 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 1970 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1861 Views
fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1868 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 1987 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 1947 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1814 Views
That's my point *NM* darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1163 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* Bookwyrm - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1212 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* Marshall - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1174 Views
Re: She says... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1868 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1850 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1830 Views
Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 1955 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1823 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1823 Views
Nope darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1726 Views
Re: Nope fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1884 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! Mik - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 1990 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1887 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1763 Views
Well... Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 1941 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 2091 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1909 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM 1907 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... iHeartGraendal - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 2057 Views
Oh come on.. be real Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1833 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1919 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? Gee69 - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1836 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM* Myrdhyn - 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM 1274 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1858 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1208 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1159 Views
Well, exactly! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1892 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal Ryan - 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM 2143 Views
What I think happened Sidious - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1861 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Shannow - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1826 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Sidious - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 1938 Views
Fair point. Shannow - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1890 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1905 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted malekithe - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1836 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 2943 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3355 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1825 Views
she never shielded them darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1830 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1775 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1892 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1832 Views
LMAO... nice! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1832 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 1940 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1749 Views
I would agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 1920 Views
Re: I would agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1756 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1840 Views
Mostly agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1826 Views
Re: Mostly agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1794 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM 1902 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM 1942 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1859 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1870 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 1976 Views
*NM* alanna aes sedai - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 1125 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 2102 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal. Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM 1948 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM 1136 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... The Angry Druid - 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM 1881 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM 1971 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself! darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM 2001 Views
I'm happy there wasn't... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM 1976 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM 1924 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM 2060 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM 1803 Views
True... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:02:59 PM 1803 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 2115 Views
For the record Heiko - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 2009 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1887 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 1961 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM 1299 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump? Marshall - 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM 2030 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM 1897 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? Tom - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 2087 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1181 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1235 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1851 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1181 Views
I tend to agree Sidious - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1878 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2505 Views
Yes, but its still a little off Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1915 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 2069 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose Sidious - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 1975 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? Sidious - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 2047 Views
She was really surprised and scared. Rurouni_Kenshin - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 2006 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. Tom - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1886 Views
Quite a bit... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 2047 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 2097 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 1150 Views
Second best prologue ever... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 2279 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1911 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 1964 Views
Aran'gar is a tool Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 2094 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM 1873 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM 1810 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM 1762 Views
Yes. s/He was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1918 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? 4th Dimension - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 2079 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead? RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM 1913 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM* Tom - 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM 1191 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM* RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM 1151 Views
Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 2008 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Etzel - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 2037 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 1961 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM 2035 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part Marshall - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2644 Views
I had a similar thought, but... RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 1948 Views
Probably not Sanderson 4th Dimension - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 1982 Views
No way Rurouni_Kenshin - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1892 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out darius_sedai - 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM 2066 Views
I agree. *NM* Etzel - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1194 Views
A few nits Terez - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1895 Views
Canadian Download site alanna aes sedai - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2433 Views
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