Do everything she did without an angreal! Even with her weak angreal she may not have been able to do this! Instead of trying to prove something impossible from the chapter start thinking about what would make Graendal's acts doable. Two options:
1. She had her angreal and it was stronger than we've previously given it credit for
2. Aran'gar was not holding the Power and was caught by surprise. Her Gasp could mean anything.
Your supposition that Graendal's statement of losing objects of the power is silly since she could have had dozen's on ter'angs for all we know!
1. She had her angreal and it was stronger than we've previously given it credit for
2. Aran'gar was not holding the Power and was caught by surprise. Her Gasp could mean anything.
Your supposition that Graendal's statement of losing objects of the power is silly since she could have had dozen's on ter'angs for all we know!
But Graendal does have an angreal. I really can't believe that you're trying to place a definitive value on the power of this object and using it as evidence that Graendal was too weak to do all those things. As another poster said, if the angreal made her only 50% stronger, it would be a more than suitable explanation, and it would make it the weakest known angreal in the series by far.
Harping on the fact that Graendal claims that it's a weak angreal is very poor evidence because Elayne makes a similar statement about her cache of angreal and they appear to provide an immense advantage to the casual reader.
I think you're ignoring a very important fact that a male channeler cannot sense saidar at all, bar the goosebumps. It's like suggesting that Saroiya would have sensed Narishma's weave of Spirit around her for some obscure reason. The channeler only senses a disturbance to their connection when they try to pull on the Source. There are a lot of examples of this, and I'm quite surprised you're trying to refute them all.
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion
- 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM
9136 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!!
- 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM
2565 Views
A dove, that's weird
- 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM
2332 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird
- 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM
2277 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM*
- 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM
1302 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM*
- 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM
1414 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!)
- 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM
2450 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM*
- 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM
1277 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM*
- 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM
1303 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM*
- 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM
1282 Views
Regarding Graendal
- 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM
2641 Views
a very weak angreal
- 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM
2155 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone.
- 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM
2125 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream
- 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM
2212 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
- 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM
2263 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply
- 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM
2150 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not
- 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM
1981 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not.
- 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM
2069 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time?
- 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM
2064 Views
I think so, yes.
- 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM
2010 Views
I don't think so actually
- 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM
2107 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling
- 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM
2025 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM*
- 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM
1128 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd
- 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM
1921 Views
So here's what happens...
- 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM
2447 Views
Thanks. A few comments...
- 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM
1930 Views
I don't rule out the angreal...
- 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM
1947 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so...
- 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM
2084 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time
- 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM
1928 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving.
- 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM
1936 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place
- 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM
1963 Views
How did she know there was a shield?
- 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM
1924 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source...
- 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM
1903 Views
Who said "they"?
- 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM
1881 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe
- 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM
1953 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded
- 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM
1844 Views
Provide evidence?
- 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM
1914 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder
- 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM
1830 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect
- 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM
1793 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal?
- 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM
2039 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded.
- 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM
2839 Views
So?
- 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM
1722 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source
- 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM
1823 Views
we don't know that
- 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM
1886 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence...
- 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM
1871 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her
- 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM
1771 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand)
- 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM
1894 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
- 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM
1857 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
- 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM
2003 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too!
- 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM
3892 Views
Well...
- 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM
1909 Views
She says...
- 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM
1906 Views
no one is arguing that
- 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM
1874 Views
Er...
- 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM
1832 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
- 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM
2656 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
- 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM
2610 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong
- 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM
1887 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
- 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM
1970 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
- 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM
1861 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM
1867 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM
1867 Views
Re:
. The evidence is that no channeled is that strong!
- 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM
1987 Views
. The evidence is that no channeled is that strong!
- 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM
1987 Views
Really?
- 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM
1947 Views
Re: Really?
- 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM
1814 Views
That's my point *NM*
- 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM
1163 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk).
*NM*
- 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM
1211 Views
*NM*
- 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM
1211 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both
- 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM
1830 Views
Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM
1955 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM
1823 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM
1823 Views
Nope
- 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM
1726 Views
Re: Nope
- 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM
1884 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to
- 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM
1763 Views
Well...
- 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM
1941 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
- 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM
2090 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
- 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM
1909 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene
- 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM
1907 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield?
- 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM
1835 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM*
- 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM
1274 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well
- 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM
1858 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM*
- 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM
1207 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM*
- 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM
1159 Views
Well, exactly!
- 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM
1892 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal
- 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM
2143 Views
What I think happened
- 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM
1860 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
- 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM
1826 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
- 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM
1938 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
- 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM
2943 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
- 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM
3355 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate...
- 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM
1825 Views
she never shielded them
- 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM
1829 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both...
- 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM
1775 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
- 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM
1892 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
- 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM
1832 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too..
- 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM
1940 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there...
- 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM
1749 Views
Mostly agree
- 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM
1826 Views
Re: Mostly agree
- 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM
1793 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
- 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM
1902 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
- 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM
1942 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally
- 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM
1859 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha
- 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM
1870 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this
- 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM
2102 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal.
- 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM
1948 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM
1136 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
- 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM
1881 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene...
- 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM
1971 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself!
- 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM
2001 Views
I'm happy there wasn't...
- 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM
1976 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
- 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM
1924 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
- 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM
2060 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series...
- 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM
1803 Views
For the record
- 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM
2009 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM
1299 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump?
- 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM
2030 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though.
- 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM
1897 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place?
- 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM
2087 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM
1181 Views
I tend to agree
- 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM
1878 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex
- 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM
2504 Views
Yes, but its still a little off
- 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM
1915 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand?
- 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM
2047 Views
Aran'gar is a tool
- 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM
2094 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
- 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM
1873 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
- 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM
1810 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party...
- 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM
1762 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead?
- 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM
1912 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM*
- 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM
1191 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM*
- 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM
1151 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
- 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM
2036 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
- 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM
1961 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer
- 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM
2035 Views
- 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM
2035 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part
- 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM
2644 Views
No way
- 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM
1892 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out
- 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM
2066 Views

*NM*

*NM*
*NM*