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Don't turn this around on the Aes Sedai rAndy aL Send a noteboard - 27/10/2010 10:53:27 AM
Just because one side is powerful enough to ignore the other does not invalidate the state of mind of the Children. Their actions are explained by their own mentality. The lack of overt fighting back does not alter their own position.
An explanation doesn't mean an excuse. You cannot use war as a justification unless you can justify the war itself. In this case, their fighting against a stronger enemy that refuses to fight back except in self defense. Aes Sedai are by no means "good", but it doesn't take a genius to work out that they are not all darkfriends. The 2 biggest Ajahs are dedicated to fighting Shadowspawn and stopping male channelers for god's sake!

We're talking about people who channel. If you accept their admittedly flawed first premise, the rest follows naturally.
You shouldn't. My whole point was that they are far too quick to label people as darkfriends. You can't excuse that because they think Aes Sedai are darkfriends. That's circular reasoning.
This is hardly a fault solely to be placed at the feet of the Children of the Light. The Aes Sedai are little different. The Children's problem is they have no way to deal with such things short of getting rid of them. The knee-jerk reaction of most sisters to wolfbrothers and sniffers is suspicion. It's easy to be tolerant once you can safely establish that you outweigh them on the scale of supernatural power by several orders of magnitude.
There's a big difference between being suspicious of someone and asserting that they must be an agent of Evil. The children's knee-jerk reaction to wolfbrothers and sniffers is to kill them. Not equivalent.

Under suspicion, certainly. Siuan uses much more dubious links to advise the Amyrlin Seat that Cadsuane, the Aes Sedai engaged in the single most important task of any sister in the world at the time, was suspected of being a Darkfriend as well.
Ok, under suspicion but the whole guilty until proven innocent thing bugs me a little. It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't already think way too many people were darkfriends.

Eh, he was young and new. You can hardly blame them for being suspicious.
If that's the case, why was he put in charge? He's obviously too hot-blooded to be a good leader.

Actually, it was the Trolloc infestation that gave Ordeith's supernaturally-reinforced accusations credibility. Are we going to start evaluating Mat's attempted murder while under the influence of the Shadar Logoth dagger as a character flaw?
If Mat did that on the boat to Whitebridge, then yes. I can excuse any of Ordeith's Whitecloaks, but the other ones were not that heavily affected.

Even the White Tower's servants are darkfriends!
Who else would willingly serve the arch-minions of the Dark One?
People who need money to live?

Well, maybe if we ever saw them receiving the slightest modicum of cooperation from anyone they did not absolutely have under their thumbs, they wouldn't think they had to push so hard all the time. Recall that they DID try the peaceful approach at first, before turning to military methods. It is a valid possibility that they were driven to it by persecution of powerful individuals or groups who resented the preachers' claims that they might be harboring darkfriends, and that possibility is equally likely compared to those which reflect more poorly on them.
More likely they turned to military methods because of the Hundred Years War. Seriously, what do you think would have happened if the Aes Sedai tried the same technique? Seanchan Empire?

Also, they wouldn't have to push so hard if people just followed them like good little sheeple. Good one. :P

And none of this alters the issue I originally brought up. This is a massive time of change in WoT, and a lot of slates are being wiped blank. If the group that literally destroyed the world three thousand years ago can be rehabilitated and given a fresh start (with not a single individual yet shown to display the moral character of Galad Damodred or the service to the Light of Lord Captain Trom), why not the Children?
I should point out that the Aes Sedai are different from their AoL counterparts in all but name.

I was comparing their organizations' reactions to the CURRENT similar crises, and everyone else starts bringing up old issues that they themselves are putting in the past because there are more important things to deal with (a notion that has occurred to maybe .6% of Aes Sedai).
And don't think you were taking pot shots at the Aes Sedai in your comparison? I find that hard to believe, because everyone else did. Then people bring up differences between the Children and Aes Sedai that might influence the way they reacted to the situation, and you fight any point they make to the death. Don't hold yourself blameless here.

I think the kinds of response I get to this are seriously indicative of some major mental flaws in the contemporary mindset. Whatever is going on in the popular zeitgeist, you people all get so hung up on the use of torture that you instinctively sympathize with the group that does a better job of hiding it, despite their far more egregious crimes against freedom. The suppression of other channeling organizations, and the brutalizing channelers who have no obligations or ties to their authority but choose to associate on their own are far more egregious crimes than being a bit rough when occupying a vacuum of authority. The former strike at the very concepts of personal freedom and free will and justice, whereas the worst one can quarrel with the Children over is their methods. The Tower pursues absolutely evil (with a lowercase 'e' ) goals, and because they are nice about it, that's all cool. But just because the Children become so sidetracked that they lost track of their mission in a way that just happens to touch on something held in public revulsion in contemporary society, they cannot even be given credit for their positive efforts in the current time.
Don't tell me I have mental problems for disagreeing with you. The Aes Sedai supress other channelers. The Whitecloaks kill them on site. The Aes Sedai use torture. The Whitecloaks have a sub-organisation dedicated to it. If you really think we only disagree with the Whitecloaks on their methods, you haven't been reading. The Aes Sedai have evil goals. The Whitecloaks have evil goals, but are better at hiding them. Saying that we only care about their use of torture is a complete misrepresentation of the views of everyone who replied.
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The Children of the Light and the White Tower Cannoli - 20/10/2010 08:32:10 PM 2302 Views
Re: The Children of the Light and the White Tower moratcorlm - 20/10/2010 08:58:12 PM 952 Views
The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. Cannoli - 20/10/2010 09:05:55 PM 1078 Views
Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 12:15:48 AM 996 Views
Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. Cannoli - 21/10/2010 02:59:49 PM 979 Views
Hehe. Touché! *NM* Mik - 21/10/2010 03:05:02 PM 525 Views
Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. Datakim - 21/10/2010 04:35:00 PM 818 Views
And farmers are, of course, treated the same as rebel officers and usurpers and mutineers. Cannoli - 23/10/2010 03:07:10 PM 873 Views
Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 07:55:06 PM 914 Views
And there is no indication of how far that went. Cannoli - 23/10/2010 03:12:42 PM 781 Views
"The question" as opposed to "questioning" moratcorlm - 24/10/2010 06:21:43 PM 824 Views
And that would indicate everyone does it, if it is so commonly used, so how are the CoL worse? *NM* Cannoli - 25/10/2010 01:14:13 AM 559 Views
Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. rAndy aL - 24/10/2010 06:53:19 AM 995 Views
But that explains their actions Cannoli - 25/10/2010 01:41:50 AM 806 Views
Don't turn this around on the Aes Sedai rAndy aL - 27/10/2010 10:53:27 AM 960 Views
The utter stupidity of this statement caught my eye... fionwe1987 - 24/10/2010 08:12:58 AM 809 Views
Your analyses and extension of concepts always brings that "utter stupidity" phrase to my mind. Cannoli - 25/10/2010 02:17:10 AM 992 Views
Huh? ... what !! ... are you mad? Sidious - 21/10/2010 05:05:16 PM 910 Views
Did you forget the very first PoV Darkfriend in the series? Cannoli - 23/10/2010 03:27:25 PM 896 Views
Difference being the whitecloaks who were ordered to do it were not DFs. All the AS evil deeds darius_sedai - 23/10/2010 07:55:23 PM 932 Views
So similar scenes in the Cairhienin civil war were all the work of Darkfriends? Cannoli - 25/10/2010 02:25:57 AM 873 Views
Please provide an example of a DF AS committing an atrocity and not being punished by the Tower darius_sedai - 25/10/2010 03:34:46 AM 815 Views
Just one? Here's a list from the top of my head in 60 secs:.. Mik - 25/10/2010 09:28:10 AM 879 Views
Re: Just one? Here's a list from the top of my head in 60 secs:.. Sidious - 25/10/2010 04:14:05 PM 1004 Views
Not to mention it's not like any of these have been without repercussion! darius_sedai - 25/10/2010 04:50:39 PM 728 Views
Re: Not to mention it's not like any of these have been without repercussion! Mik - 27/10/2010 01:06:53 PM 924 Views
You under some delusion that I'm defending the AS darius_sedai - 27/10/2010 08:29:14 PM 838 Views
No. I'm pointing out you are under the delusion that AS pay for their atrocities. Mik - 28/10/2010 09:16:38 AM 794 Views
okay, so AS never Still and execute AS for doing stuff ... have you read the series? darius_sedai - 28/10/2010 05:20:28 PM 817 Views
That doesn't make the -unpunished- atrocities disappear, you know. Your point is lame AND moot. Mik - 28/10/2010 07:07:27 PM 894 Views
Re: That doesn't make the -unpunished- atrocities disappear, you know. Your point is lame AND moot. fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 07:09:33 PM 773 Views
Strawman argument, Sid. Mik - 27/10/2010 11:35:40 AM 830 Views
To echo Darius... fionwe1987 - 23/10/2010 08:34:00 PM 862 Views
Re: To echo Darius... Mik - 25/10/2010 10:03:14 AM 794 Views
Go look up the definition of the word atrocity darius_sedai - 25/10/2010 04:53:55 PM 828 Views
Their implicit role in the genocide of Manetheren was probable their greatest atrocity *NM* Knightscape - 26/10/2010 03:01:01 AM 520 Views
You mean the act that got Tetsuan deposed, Stilled and sentenced to hard labor until she gave up the darius_sedai - 26/10/2010 04:19:45 AM 1084 Views
Ya, the ultimated punishment of cleaning pots and floors NOOOOOOOO!!! Knightscape - 26/10/2010 11:59:51 PM 780 Views
Maybe you should have done that yourself: "behaviour or an action that is wicked or ruthless" Mik - 27/10/2010 11:11:30 AM 785 Views
the fact that you can't differentiate between the extermination of an entire village darius_sedai - 27/10/2010 08:30:12 PM 822 Views
READ; I *did* differentiate between them. It doesn't change the fact all are atrocious deeds Mik - 28/10/2010 09:00:56 AM 915 Views
darius_sedai - 28/10/2010 05:22:18 PM 760 Views
You asked for atrocities and you got them. Now you just don't know what to do with them. Mik - 28/10/2010 06:49:16 PM 859 Views
dude, you gave us a list of petty crimes and compared it to mass murder darius_sedai - 28/10/2010 06:59:33 PM 819 Views
Complete the thought... fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 07:11:37 PM 731 Views
seems I must do so for this guy to understand ... and I'm not holding my breath on that! darius_sedai - 28/10/2010 08:24:57 PM 864 Views
Rape, murder, starting wars and doing noting about them, kidnap / severe torture of prisoners... *NM* Mik - 28/10/2010 07:51:33 PM 475 Views
again you fail to note that the AS have systems in place to prevent these things darius_sedai - 28/10/2010 08:23:32 PM 839 Views
Again you fail to note that the AS haven't used those "systems" of theirs Mik - 28/10/2010 09:02:15 PM 1015 Views
What wars did they start? fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 08:56:46 PM 737 Views
You should be an Aes Sedai; the way you can twist truth would scare Siuan. Mik - 28/10/2010 09:07:24 PM 782 Views
Wow... I'm sooo Insulted! fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 09:23:41 PM 792 Views
fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 07:07:57 PM 864 Views
Take your own advice, please Mik - 28/10/2010 07:30:51 PM 782 Views
Re: Take your own advice, please Sidious - 28/10/2010 07:44:59 PM 727 Views
Their own organisation calls it rape. Simple. Mik - 28/10/2010 08:26:49 PM 811 Views
Re: Take your own advice, please fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 09:18:17 PM 924 Views
Come on. Just say it. Real men don't act like catty, bitchy women. *NM* Tom - 20/10/2010 11:14:49 PM 515 Views
"Rightly hold responsible for the threat of the Shadow?" Puh-leeze newyorkersedai - 21/10/2010 12:06:34 AM 816 Views
Puh-leeze right back at you: Mik - 21/10/2010 08:24:12 AM 794 Views
The Wheel was created so the DO could break in. The Creator plays his game with the DO thru people newyorkersedai - 21/10/2010 01:45:07 PM 802 Views
It was you who brought up that silly Real World kitchen example, silly. Mik - 25/10/2010 10:55:29 AM 633 Views
I could say you zinged me, but you're just bent on silliness. Bored now. *NM* newyorkersedai - 25/10/2010 10:54:41 PM 478 Views
Your personal theories do not constitute evidence, and your aberrant logic better supports MY case Cannoli - 21/10/2010 03:21:44 PM 955 Views
Objection, your honor! Bringing evidentiary rules into this is asinine! *NM* newyorkersedai - 21/10/2010 11:22:19 PM 442 Views
The word "evidence" is not exclusive to the practice of jurisprudence Cannoli - 23/10/2010 03:31:57 PM 861 Views
Rational thinking. Well, you use the word "deserved" in all caps. Nuff said. *NM* newyorkersedai - 23/10/2010 04:55:02 PM 465 Views
Emphasis means nothing one way or another as far as rationality goes, which you would know... Cannoli - 25/10/2010 01:13:23 AM 954 Views
You know zilch about my acquaintances. "mk" was wrong - you're not an idiot. But you are ignorable. *NM* newyorkersedai - 25/10/2010 10:57:04 PM 479 Views
fionwe1987 - 21/10/2010 01:47:19 AM 962 Views
Not so sure about that moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 02:29:02 AM 850 Views
Re: Not so sure about that fionwe1987 - 21/10/2010 03:57:34 AM 882 Views
the city is closed to WC Foxhead - 21/10/2010 04:01:45 AM 934 Views
Re: the city is closed to WC moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 04:55:45 AM 765 Views
But that is irrelevant. Aes Sedai can also go to Amadicia in disguise. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/10/2010 05:35:18 AM 421 Views
But they aren't in disguise moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 08:31:38 AM 796 Views
They don't wear their uniform, their one identifying feature. That is a disguise. fionwe1987 - 21/10/2010 09:08:25 PM 731 Views
Re: They don't wear their uniform, their one identifying feature. That is a disguise. moratcorlm - 22/10/2010 02:10:07 PM 831 Views
Don't be ridiculous... fionwe1987 - 22/10/2010 04:52:55 PM 792 Views
No different moratcorlm - 23/10/2010 02:26:24 PM 861 Views
CotL are welcome in Tar Valon to have a drink. Aes Sedai are hanged when found in Amadicia.. Mik - 21/10/2010 08:33:03 AM 879 Views
Here is to hoping Egwene can get her head out of her ass. Hot Pie - 21/10/2010 10:30:10 AM 866 Views
Now hang on a minute! ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 21/10/2010 07:28:45 AM 1011 Views
Re: Now hang on a minute! moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 10:49:34 AM 895 Views
Re: Now hang on a minute! rAndy aL - 21/10/2010 11:28:55 PM 908 Views
Re: Now hang on a minute! moratcorlm - 22/10/2010 01:08:14 AM 868 Views
IMO, the main difference between Egwene & Galad is... Mik - 21/10/2010 12:36:53 PM 940 Views
it would be an interesting comparison if they weren't completely different organizations Zaphod - 21/10/2010 04:09:31 PM 968 Views
You! Macharius - 22/10/2010 02:28:07 PM 867 Views
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