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He's special the same way any individual is special. RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM
Demandred, Lanfear, Semirhage, Graendal and Sammael could probably duel one another with unpredictable results, and the result would be 50-50 if they dueled a hundred times. It makes them inferior to Ishamael and Lews Therin, but not to each other.


If Ishamael is superior to the others, I just haven't seen it. The only time he's gained any real advantages has been after Moghedien and Cyndane were mindtrapped and given to him, and that was after he had suffered multiple defeats and been given a new body.

If it came down to an outright fight, and the Dark One commanded them to fight one another to the death using any means necessary, I tend to think Ishamael would be one of the first eliminated - the only thing that seems to keep him from being wiped out is the uneasy amnesty that exists among the Forsaken for most of the series - he shows himself incapable of grasping basic experiences that the others understand very well, most probably because he is partially insane and because of his use of the True Power, probably worse off than many of the male channelers running around insane.

He just never struck me as a legitimate threat in the way Lanfear, Graendal, Sammael, semirhage or Demandred have. Ishamael seems to have suffered the most from the "BS degree in Evil Villainy 101" syndrome.

In fact, I think that there were many Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends who were equal to Lews Therin, all things considered, including Latra Posae Decume - we know Lews Therin's weak points probably better than any channelers at this point, not counting my personal feelings that he is especially attuned to Air, Fire and Spirit with weakness abilities with Water and Earth. He seems to balance quite well with the Forsaken, who were his peers, and channelers of his own comparable potential in terms of capability to channel greater volumes of the Power next to their various skillsets.


I don't really agree with you. I do agree with you that Ishamael has not produced the goods, but I think he is undoubtedly meant to be Rand's counterpart in the Shadow. The series is totally saturated with quotes about his unparalleled power in the Shadow. In fact, if there is anyone we can be sure of, it should be him.

The Guide mentions him as the undoubted top captain general of the Shadow, and probably the first man to turn to the Dark One. He dueled Lews Therin in one of the few known duels of the War of Power in front of the biggest city in the world. He's fought Rand three times, and died, and become the Nae'blis. He commands the other Forsaken. Everything about him suggests that there is something just one step above the others.


RJ did say the Guide was written from the standpoint of a scholar so there is a lot of material that you can't take as irrefutable truth. A nice way to get out of giving the readers too much info in my opinion - it gave him a nice escape hatch.

I mean, technically, if we want to talk about his "unparalleled" power in the Shadow, it's pretty hard to reconcile this with his defeats by a barely trained farmboy, even if said farmboy has the reborn soul of his ancient enemy. I'm sorry, but I get the feeling that Ishamael's reputation is vastly undeserved. He's a thinker - not a fighter. And in a war, it's no surprise that A) He never held a field command and B) He was defeated each time he confronted his "nemesis" in battle, despite having more advantages. The only thing we are absolutely sure he is superior to the other Forsaken in, is his insanity. Otherwise, he's not much to speak of.

As for Lews Therin, I think he was equalled as an allround channeler by only a few people. Mesaana's quote that Demandred would be the undoubted best man of the Age if not for Lews Therin is quite a strong statement, and even Lanfear says that Lews Therin could equal any Aes Sedai in power. He was not strong in everything, much like Rand, but he could perform many feats which other Aes Sedai could not, and he was a masterful channeler to the point that he was chosen to be the highest member of the Hall.


I don't think so - I tend to think that the term "greatest of the Age" itself is so loaded with subjective judgements that it is a little ridiculous. He's greater than the greatest Healers? By virtue of what? Or does this means he's a great orator or leader? It's never really expressed. This is somewhat like claiming Time Magazine's "Person of the Year" is grounded in objective measurements, when it really is Time's overall opinion ie: subjective judgement. I don't buy it. It's a little too hokey for me, and devalues the series IMO.
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The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power - 12/09/2009 09:27:20 PM 1939 Views
Some thoughts about Semmy - 12/09/2009 09:59:50 PM 1109 Views
Re: Some thoughts about Semmy - 13/09/2009 08:33:28 AM 1186 Views
Of course... - 13/09/2009 08:36:39 AM 978 Views
I've been thinking the same for years - 12/09/2009 11:25:02 PM 1101 Views
The Big White Book says... - 12/09/2009 11:46:43 PM 1163 Views
Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 08:36:37 AM 1162 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 03:16:13 PM 1068 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 05:47:14 PM 1111 Views
Fact is, the bwb is untrustworthy - 13/09/2009 05:54:28 PM 1030 Views
We must either use all the quotes from the BWB or none of them - 13/09/2009 06:07:46 PM 1066 Views
Or... - 13/09/2009 08:41:23 PM 1005 Views
Re: Or... - 14/09/2009 04:46:52 AM 987 Views
But, RJ himself said that the BWB was written from the standpoint of a scholar - 14/09/2009 04:42:59 PM 1055 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 08:17:28 PM 978 Views
It all depends on how you define "powerful" - 14/09/2009 02:30:31 AM 1085 Views
I agree 101%. *NM* - 14/09/2009 03:49:51 AM 539 Views
I think power is much more than raw strength - 14/09/2009 05:00:10 AM 992 Views
I agree for the most part, but disagree on one thing. - 14/09/2009 07:52:10 PM 1158 Views
Re: The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power - 12/09/2009 11:48:03 PM 1014 Views
the other reason - 13/09/2009 03:24:24 PM 936 Views
So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 13/09/2009 05:41:42 PM 951 Views
Graendal could fight Lanfear and win - 13/09/2009 06:01:57 PM 1518 Views
Graendal herself says... - 13/09/2009 09:08:46 PM 980 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... - 14/09/2009 04:48:37 AM 1027 Views
Doesn't Graendal have an Angreal now? - 17/09/2009 03:29:10 AM 1061 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... - 15/09/2009 05:36:53 PM 910 Views
Lanfear was more powerful than Graendal, but Cyndane has less power - 13/09/2009 10:19:35 PM 968 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 13/09/2009 06:05:11 PM 1135 Views
I agree with this - 13/09/2009 06:15:24 PM 1120 Views
Compulsion=any other deadly weave. Doesn't really change matters - 13/09/2009 10:23:40 PM 1004 Views
Excellent point *NM* - 13/09/2009 10:35:08 PM 551 Views
But it did give her an edge, and against two forsaken. *NM* - 13/09/2009 11:12:09 PM 516 Views
Hm? When? *NM* - 14/09/2009 09:04:10 PM 456 Views
tPoD, when she compelled Cyndane and Moghedien. *NM* - 14/09/2009 10:19:23 PM 496 Views
Not at all - 14/09/2009 04:51:48 AM 1052 Views
Using Compulsion on someone doesn't seem mechanically different - 14/09/2009 09:03:41 PM 899 Views
I'm not so sure about that - 14/09/2009 09:36:45 PM 981 Views
Totally agree - 14/09/2009 10:26:07 PM 830 Views
I don't agree. - 15/09/2009 04:33:04 PM 1116 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 14/09/2009 04:34:24 PM 933 Views
But Graendal confronted her... twice! *NM* - 13/09/2009 07:48:29 PM 467 Views
Apparently only the third time counts *NM* - 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM 515 Views
Really? - 13/09/2009 08:36:33 PM 977 Views
No falsely... - 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM 1194 Views
That's pretty much my opinion in a nutshell - 14/09/2009 04:56:15 AM 1153 Views
And, of course, the male and female OP strength ranks might not even correlate that much - 14/09/2009 04:41:58 PM 915 Views
They correlate on some critical points - 14/09/2009 06:57:43 PM 1116 Views
That's not exactly what I'm referring to. - 15/09/2009 04:36:29 PM 875 Views
But then we are discussing the same thing - 15/09/2009 06:59:04 PM 1004 Views
I think, outside of semantics, our main disagreement doesn't lie amid the higher tiers - 16/09/2009 03:53:09 PM 875 Views
Probably - 16/09/2009 06:31:27 PM 1022 Views
Re: Probably - 16/09/2009 07:19:03 PM 990 Views
Re: Probably - 16/09/2009 08:59:31 PM 985 Views
Re: Probably - 18/09/2009 07:03:09 PM 1312 Views
Ahh the old debate... - 17/09/2009 12:42:36 AM 954 Views
Re: Ahh the old debate... - 17/09/2009 05:26:52 AM 914 Views
I only disagree on one point, I think they are all rather equal in potential, incl. Ishamael - 14/09/2009 04:28:12 PM 1010 Views
I do think Ishamel is special - 14/09/2009 07:04:03 PM 1086 Views
He's special the same way any individual is special. - 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM 1041 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM 999 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 03:48:34 PM 988 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 04:39:39 PM 983 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 04:53:00 PM 973 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 06:47:45 PM 1012 Views
The more interesting question is... - 14/09/2009 06:34:11 PM 903 Views
Hmmm - 14/09/2009 07:04:34 PM 994 Views
I think we'll see Graendal vs. Aran'gar. - 14/09/2009 07:31:16 PM 1028 Views
Ah yes, that makes sense, and would be great! *NM* - 14/09/2009 07:40:29 PM 856 Views
Yeah. Though I think its no competition. Graendal has got to be better than a walking tree! - 14/09/2009 07:50:09 PM 905 Views
They do imply that Graendal is a lot more dangerous than she looks - 14/09/2009 09:08:43 PM 934 Views
I've never underestimated Graendal - 14/09/2009 09:42:49 PM 982 Views
Yeah... her frivolity was always a red flag for me too. - 14/09/2009 10:18:40 PM 1019 Views
To me, she is the most lethal. - 15/09/2009 05:18:10 PM 767 Views
Yup... - 15/09/2009 06:39:20 PM 820 Views
I still like Lanfear more - 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM 912 Views
Bah! She's an idiot! - 15/09/2009 07:06:06 PM 925 Views
only in love *NM* - 15/09/2009 07:23:29 PM 879 Views
Graendal did not beat me and Moghedien - 15/09/2009 05:59:39 PM 1015 Views
Agreed - 15/09/2009 06:36:48 PM 903 Views
Ummm... how do we know? - 15/09/2009 06:40:57 PM 1039 Views
Re: Ummm... how do we know? - 15/09/2009 06:56:21 PM 942 Views
Hmmm... - 15/09/2009 07:07:45 PM 1139 Views

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