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He's special the same way any individual is special. RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM
Demandred, Lanfear, Semirhage, Graendal and Sammael could probably duel one another with unpredictable results, and the result would be 50-50 if they dueled a hundred times. It makes them inferior to Ishamael and Lews Therin, but not to each other.


If Ishamael is superior to the others, I just haven't seen it. The only time he's gained any real advantages has been after Moghedien and Cyndane were mindtrapped and given to him, and that was after he had suffered multiple defeats and been given a new body.

If it came down to an outright fight, and the Dark One commanded them to fight one another to the death using any means necessary, I tend to think Ishamael would be one of the first eliminated - the only thing that seems to keep him from being wiped out is the uneasy amnesty that exists among the Forsaken for most of the series - he shows himself incapable of grasping basic experiences that the others understand very well, most probably because he is partially insane and because of his use of the True Power, probably worse off than many of the male channelers running around insane.

He just never struck me as a legitimate threat in the way Lanfear, Graendal, Sammael, semirhage or Demandred have. Ishamael seems to have suffered the most from the "BS degree in Evil Villainy 101" syndrome.

In fact, I think that there were many Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends who were equal to Lews Therin, all things considered, including Latra Posae Decume - we know Lews Therin's weak points probably better than any channelers at this point, not counting my personal feelings that he is especially attuned to Air, Fire and Spirit with weakness abilities with Water and Earth. He seems to balance quite well with the Forsaken, who were his peers, and channelers of his own comparable potential in terms of capability to channel greater volumes of the Power next to their various skillsets.


I don't really agree with you. I do agree with you that Ishamael has not produced the goods, but I think he is undoubtedly meant to be Rand's counterpart in the Shadow. The series is totally saturated with quotes about his unparalleled power in the Shadow. In fact, if there is anyone we can be sure of, it should be him.

The Guide mentions him as the undoubted top captain general of the Shadow, and probably the first man to turn to the Dark One. He dueled Lews Therin in one of the few known duels of the War of Power in front of the biggest city in the world. He's fought Rand three times, and died, and become the Nae'blis. He commands the other Forsaken. Everything about him suggests that there is something just one step above the others.


RJ did say the Guide was written from the standpoint of a scholar so there is a lot of material that you can't take as irrefutable truth. A nice way to get out of giving the readers too much info in my opinion - it gave him a nice escape hatch.

I mean, technically, if we want to talk about his "unparalleled" power in the Shadow, it's pretty hard to reconcile this with his defeats by a barely trained farmboy, even if said farmboy has the reborn soul of his ancient enemy. I'm sorry, but I get the feeling that Ishamael's reputation is vastly undeserved. He's a thinker - not a fighter. And in a war, it's no surprise that A) He never held a field command and B) He was defeated each time he confronted his "nemesis" in battle, despite having more advantages. The only thing we are absolutely sure he is superior to the other Forsaken in, is his insanity. Otherwise, he's not much to speak of.

As for Lews Therin, I think he was equalled as an allround channeler by only a few people. Mesaana's quote that Demandred would be the undoubted best man of the Age if not for Lews Therin is quite a strong statement, and even Lanfear says that Lews Therin could equal any Aes Sedai in power. He was not strong in everything, much like Rand, but he could perform many feats which other Aes Sedai could not, and he was a masterful channeler to the point that he was chosen to be the highest member of the Hall.


I don't think so - I tend to think that the term "greatest of the Age" itself is so loaded with subjective judgements that it is a little ridiculous. He's greater than the greatest Healers? By virtue of what? Or does this means he's a great orator or leader? It's never really expressed. This is somewhat like claiming Time Magazine's "Person of the Year" is grounded in objective measurements, when it really is Time's overall opinion ie: subjective judgement. I don't buy it. It's a little too hokey for me, and devalues the series IMO.
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The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power - 12/09/2009 09:27:20 PM 1914 Views
Some thoughts about Semmy - 12/09/2009 09:59:50 PM 1086 Views
Re: Some thoughts about Semmy - 13/09/2009 08:33:28 AM 1162 Views
Of course... - 13/09/2009 08:36:39 AM 955 Views
I've been thinking the same for years - 12/09/2009 11:25:02 PM 1069 Views
The Big White Book says... - 12/09/2009 11:46:43 PM 1141 Views
Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 08:36:37 AM 1140 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 03:16:13 PM 1048 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 05:47:14 PM 1093 Views
Fact is, the bwb is untrustworthy - 13/09/2009 05:54:28 PM 1007 Views
We must either use all the quotes from the BWB or none of them - 13/09/2009 06:07:46 PM 1042 Views
Or... - 13/09/2009 08:41:23 PM 984 Views
Re: Or... - 14/09/2009 04:46:52 AM 952 Views
But, RJ himself said that the BWB was written from the standpoint of a scholar - 14/09/2009 04:42:59 PM 1033 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 08:17:28 PM 955 Views
It all depends on how you define "powerful" - 14/09/2009 02:30:31 AM 1064 Views
I agree 101%. *NM* - 14/09/2009 03:49:51 AM 530 Views
I think power is much more than raw strength - 14/09/2009 05:00:10 AM 970 Views
I agree for the most part, but disagree on one thing. - 14/09/2009 07:52:10 PM 1136 Views
Re: The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power - 12/09/2009 11:48:03 PM 996 Views
the other reason - 13/09/2009 03:24:24 PM 918 Views
So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 13/09/2009 05:41:42 PM 927 Views
Graendal could fight Lanfear and win - 13/09/2009 06:01:57 PM 1503 Views
Graendal herself says... - 13/09/2009 09:08:46 PM 956 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... - 14/09/2009 04:48:37 AM 1011 Views
Doesn't Graendal have an Angreal now? - 17/09/2009 03:29:10 AM 1028 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... - 15/09/2009 05:36:53 PM 885 Views
Lanfear was more powerful than Graendal, but Cyndane has less power - 13/09/2009 10:19:35 PM 947 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 13/09/2009 06:05:11 PM 1111 Views
I agree with this - 13/09/2009 06:15:24 PM 1102 Views
Compulsion=any other deadly weave. Doesn't really change matters - 13/09/2009 10:23:40 PM 984 Views
Excellent point *NM* - 13/09/2009 10:35:08 PM 542 Views
But it did give her an edge, and against two forsaken. *NM* - 13/09/2009 11:12:09 PM 507 Views
Hm? When? *NM* - 14/09/2009 09:04:10 PM 448 Views
tPoD, when she compelled Cyndane and Moghedien. *NM* - 14/09/2009 10:19:23 PM 486 Views
Not at all - 14/09/2009 04:51:48 AM 1030 Views
Using Compulsion on someone doesn't seem mechanically different - 14/09/2009 09:03:41 PM 879 Views
I'm not so sure about that - 14/09/2009 09:36:45 PM 958 Views
Totally agree - 14/09/2009 10:26:07 PM 816 Views
I don't agree. - 15/09/2009 04:33:04 PM 1093 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 14/09/2009 04:34:24 PM 913 Views
But Graendal confronted her... twice! *NM* - 13/09/2009 07:48:29 PM 458 Views
Apparently only the third time counts *NM* - 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM 504 Views
Really? - 13/09/2009 08:36:33 PM 956 Views
No falsely... - 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM 1168 Views
That's pretty much my opinion in a nutshell - 14/09/2009 04:56:15 AM 1131 Views
And, of course, the male and female OP strength ranks might not even correlate that much - 14/09/2009 04:41:58 PM 889 Views
They correlate on some critical points - 14/09/2009 06:57:43 PM 1094 Views
That's not exactly what I'm referring to. - 15/09/2009 04:36:29 PM 840 Views
But then we are discussing the same thing - 15/09/2009 06:59:04 PM 985 Views
I think, outside of semantics, our main disagreement doesn't lie amid the higher tiers - 16/09/2009 03:53:09 PM 851 Views
Probably - 16/09/2009 06:31:27 PM 999 Views
Re: Probably - 16/09/2009 07:19:03 PM 968 Views
Re: Probably - 16/09/2009 08:59:31 PM 956 Views
Re: Probably - 18/09/2009 07:03:09 PM 1291 Views
Ahh the old debate... - 17/09/2009 12:42:36 AM 928 Views
Re: Ahh the old debate... - 17/09/2009 05:26:52 AM 898 Views
I only disagree on one point, I think they are all rather equal in potential, incl. Ishamael - 14/09/2009 04:28:12 PM 992 Views
I do think Ishamel is special - 14/09/2009 07:04:03 PM 1062 Views
He's special the same way any individual is special. - 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM 1019 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM 979 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 03:48:34 PM 966 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 04:39:39 PM 950 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 04:53:00 PM 953 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 06:47:45 PM 990 Views
The more interesting question is... - 14/09/2009 06:34:11 PM 881 Views
Hmmm - 14/09/2009 07:04:34 PM 974 Views
I think we'll see Graendal vs. Aran'gar. - 14/09/2009 07:31:16 PM 1008 Views
Ah yes, that makes sense, and would be great! *NM* - 14/09/2009 07:40:29 PM 821 Views
Yeah. Though I think its no competition. Graendal has got to be better than a walking tree! - 14/09/2009 07:50:09 PM 881 Views
They do imply that Graendal is a lot more dangerous than she looks - 14/09/2009 09:08:43 PM 907 Views
I've never underestimated Graendal - 14/09/2009 09:42:49 PM 960 Views
Yeah... her frivolity was always a red flag for me too. - 14/09/2009 10:18:40 PM 1003 Views
To me, she is the most lethal. - 15/09/2009 05:18:10 PM 747 Views
Yup... - 15/09/2009 06:39:20 PM 801 Views
I still like Lanfear more - 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM 888 Views
Bah! She's an idiot! - 15/09/2009 07:06:06 PM 898 Views
only in love *NM* - 15/09/2009 07:23:29 PM 853 Views
Graendal did not beat me and Moghedien - 15/09/2009 05:59:39 PM 993 Views
Agreed - 15/09/2009 06:36:48 PM 880 Views
Ummm... how do we know? - 15/09/2009 06:40:57 PM 1018 Views
Re: Ummm... how do we know? - 15/09/2009 06:56:21 PM 925 Views
Hmmm... - 15/09/2009 07:07:45 PM 1121 Views

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