Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
Sidious Send a noteboard - 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM
RJ did say the Guide was written from the standpoint of a scholar so there is a lot of material that you can't take as irrefutable truth. A nice way to get out of giving the readers too much info in my opinion - it gave him a nice escape hatch.
I mean, technically, if we want to talk about his "unparalleled" power in the Shadow, it's pretty hard to reconcile this with his defeats by a barely trained farmboy, even if said farmboy has the reborn soul of his ancient enemy. I'm sorry, but I get the feeling that Ishamael's reputation is vastly undeserved. He's a thinker - not a fighter. And in a war, it's no surprise that A) He never held a field command and B) He was defeated each time he confronted his "nemesis" in battle, despite having more advantages. The only thing we are absolutely sure he is superior to the other Forsaken in, is his insanity. Otherwise, he's not much to speak of.
I mean, technically, if we want to talk about his "unparalleled" power in the Shadow, it's pretty hard to reconcile this with his defeats by a barely trained farmboy, even if said farmboy has the reborn soul of his ancient enemy. I'm sorry, but I get the feeling that Ishamael's reputation is vastly undeserved. He's a thinker - not a fighter. And in a war, it's no surprise that A) He never held a field command and B) He was defeated each time he confronted his "nemesis" in battle, despite having more advantages. The only thing we are absolutely sure he is superior to the other Forsaken in, is his insanity. Otherwise, he's not much to speak of.
Well I differ from you here. I think that Ishamael's power is well established as a duelist. On most occasions he was trying to convert Rand rather than kill him, and that has nothing to do with combat. I think he's the worst converter to the Shadow I've ever seen, but that was his tactic.
When he finally decided to kill Rand in TDR, he tells him he's given him two chances to convert and he refused, and now he will die. Ishamael then hurled everything from balefire, to every other kind of weave at Rand in the Stone, and Rand was only saved by using one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever made. I thought that of all the Forsaken battles, this one was the most technically impressive, but it looks like he literally tried every flow against Rand to find his weakness.
It's also important to remember that his nemesis is an extremely powerful ta'veren who bends the pattern around him. I'm not sure if such a man actually can be beaten. Even so, I don't think it's a coincidence that Ishamael was the one to fight Lews Therin in a duel in the War of Power. Otherwise it would have been Demandred or Lanfear if the Shadow had someone better.
I don't think so - I tend to think that the term "greatest of the Age" itself is so loaded with subjective judgements that it is a little ridiculous. He's greater than the greatest Healers? By virtue of what? Or does this means he's a great orator or leader? It's never really expressed. This is somewhat like claiming Time Magazine's "Person of the Year" is grounded in objective measurements, when it really is Time's overall opinion ie: subjective judgement. I don't buy it. It's a little too hokey for me, and devalues the series IMO.
Well the Power is a funny thing - it actually is one discipline even if there are many Talents. He was certainly an exceptionally strong and gifted channeler. There were probably a few hundred channelers on his level, and many thousands with special abilities he didn't have. But he was made First among Servants because he was so powerful and because he was a nice guy. Even Moghedien and Be'lal hated that about him.
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The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power
- 12/09/2009 09:27:20 PM
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The Big White Book says...
- 12/09/2009 11:46:43 PM
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Not Aginor
- 13/09/2009 08:36:37 AM
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Re: Not Aginor
- 13/09/2009 03:16:13 PM
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Re: Not Aginor
- 13/09/2009 05:47:14 PM
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Fact is, the bwb is untrustworthy
- 13/09/2009 05:54:28 PM
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But, RJ himself said that the BWB was written from the standpoint of a scholar
- 14/09/2009 04:42:59 PM
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It all depends on how you define "powerful"
- 14/09/2009 02:30:31 AM
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So is graendal similar to lanfear then?
- 13/09/2009 05:41:42 PM
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Graendal could fight Lanfear and win
- 13/09/2009 06:01:57 PM
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Graendal herself says...
- 13/09/2009 09:08:46 PM
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Lanfear was more powerful than Graendal, but Cyndane has less power
- 13/09/2009 10:19:35 PM
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Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then?
- 13/09/2009 06:05:11 PM
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Compulsion=any other deadly weave. Doesn't really change matters
- 13/09/2009 10:23:40 PM
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But it did give her an edge, and against two forsaken. *NM*
- 13/09/2009 11:12:09 PM
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Not at all
- 14/09/2009 04:51:48 AM
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But Graendal confronted her... twice! *NM*
- 13/09/2009 07:48:29 PM
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Apparently only the third time counts 
*NM*
- 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM
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But the third time's supposed to be lucky. So that won't count either. *NM*
- 13/09/2009 11:26:18 PM
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*NM*
- 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM
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But the third time's supposed to be lucky. So that won't count either. *NM*
- 13/09/2009 11:26:18 PM
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Really?
- 13/09/2009 08:36:33 PM
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No falsely... 
- 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM
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- 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM
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And, of course, the male and female OP strength ranks might not even correlate that much
- 14/09/2009 04:41:58 PM
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They correlate on some critical points
- 14/09/2009 06:57:43 PM
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That's not exactly what I'm referring to.
- 15/09/2009 04:36:29 PM
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But then we are discussing the same thing
- 15/09/2009 06:59:04 PM
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I think, outside of semantics, our main disagreement doesn't lie amid the higher tiers
- 16/09/2009 03:53:09 PM
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Probably
- 16/09/2009 06:31:27 PM
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I only disagree on one point, I think they are all rather equal in potential, incl. Ishamael
- 14/09/2009 04:28:12 PM
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I do think Ishamel is special
- 14/09/2009 07:04:03 PM
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He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM
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Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM
1054 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 15/09/2009 03:48:34 PM
1031 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 15/09/2009 04:39:39 PM
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The more interesting question is...
- 14/09/2009 06:34:11 PM
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Hmmm
- 14/09/2009 07:04:34 PM
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I think we'll see Graendal vs. Aran'gar.
- 14/09/2009 07:31:16 PM
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Ah yes, that makes sense, and would be great! *NM*
- 14/09/2009 07:40:29 PM
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Yeah. Though I think its no competition. Graendal has got to be better than a walking tree!
- 14/09/2009 07:50:09 PM
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They do imply that Graendal is a lot more dangerous than she looks
- 14/09/2009 09:08:43 PM
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I've never underestimated Graendal
- 14/09/2009 09:42:49 PM
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Yeah... her frivolity was always a red flag for me too.
- 14/09/2009 10:18:40 PM
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To me, she is the most lethal.
- 15/09/2009 05:18:10 PM
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I still like Lanfear more
- 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM
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- 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM
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only in love *NM*
Graendal did not beat me and Moghedien
- 15/09/2009 05:59:39 PM
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Agreed
- 15/09/2009 06:36:48 PM
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Ummm... how do we know?
- 15/09/2009 06:40:57 PM
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