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Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. Sidious Send a noteboard - 15/09/2009 06:47:45 PM
I tend to think Lews Therin was made the First because of his leadership abilities - he seems to have had some rare Talents, but none of which were as impressive as the skills possessed by the Forsaken and some of Rand's Third Age companions. Perhaps he was a consensus builder, and a capable leader (ie: somewhat like a Blue Ajah Amyrlin - one of their greatest Sisters was considered to be Eadyth who was said to be "one of the most capable Blues in the last one hundred years"...as an Ajah, they seem to prize versatility). Because choosing your leader on the basis of One Power strength doesn't seem to gel with their society, in which strength wasn't as important due to the uniquitousness of Circles. If people referred to leadership qualities, I'd not raise any objections, but the reasons people trot out for Lews to be awarded "Best Man Ever!" always have to do with Talents, OP strength and t'a'veren status - none of which have anything to do with his personality or skills.


I agree and disagree. I also think that LTT was chosen as the First among Servants because of his leadership skills - he was akin to a world leader anyway. There is another dimension, though, and that is the One Power. I think that the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends paid quite a lot of attention to ability with their gifts. For instance, the only reason that Balthamel wasn't fired from his job was because of his strength in the Power. This means that they placed influence on the person's ability, which isn't very utopian at all. It's also convenient that Lews Therin is the strongest possible channeler in the Power, which means it's difficult to say that his ability in saidin wasn't relevant. Furthermore, I find it difficult to believe he wasn't a very skilled man too. Even you say that the Forsaken were very skilled and Talented, and yet none of them ever managed to overcome him, and still consider him to be their toughest physical opponent.

That said, Ishamael still lurks somewhere in the evil supervillain category. Basically, he sucks. And I haven't seen anything to prove otherwise. His whole backstory revolves around being defeated again and again - we don't even have any stories of his successes during the War of Power, unlike the other Forsaken. The only "success" he had was turning Hawkwing against Aes Sedai and the formation of the Black Ajah - both of which are rather lackluster in comparison to Lews Therin, Latra Posae or a Rashima Kerenmosa. So his only claim to villainy is being a philosopher who is somewhat of a nihilist (?).


Well it's obvious why Ishamael is like that - his victory would mean the end of the Light, and no story for us to read. If he defeated Lews Therin at the duel, or Rand at any stage, that would kind of be the end of everything. He may be unable to defeat Lews Therin but that doesn't mean he's a total loser - he might just be 2nd to Lews Therin. There's a fictional component to this villainy.


Which makes Demandred 3rd in line, and gives credence to the overall feelings of impotence and lack of coherence among the characters - why isn't Demandred upset that Ishamael ranks over him? I believe it is because RJ overlooked this somewhat, because logically, someone who doesn't like being second would hate even more to be third, and Demandred as a character is somewhat compromised by this. We don't need Ishamael to kill Rand - we just need him to do something besides gloat and appear with saa in his eyes.


Except Demandred doesn't think he's third. He thinks only Lews Therin is a greater man that he. Unless you mean his submission to the Nae'blis, which grates all the Forsaken I think.
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The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power Sidious - 12/09/2009 09:27:20 PM 1888 Views
Some thoughts about Semmy Lordling - 12/09/2009 09:59:50 PM 1063 Views
Re: Some thoughts about Semmy Sidious - 13/09/2009 08:33:28 AM 1129 Views
Of course... Digital_Eon - 13/09/2009 08:36:39 AM 923 Views
I've been thinking the same for years Dragonsworn - 12/09/2009 11:25:02 PM 1039 Views
The Big White Book says... Yvves - 12/09/2009 11:46:43 PM 1104 Views
Not Aginor Sidious - 13/09/2009 08:36:37 AM 1111 Views
Re: Not Aginor NaClH2O - 13/09/2009 03:16:13 PM 1021 Views
Re: Not Aginor Sidious - 13/09/2009 05:47:14 PM 1062 Views
Fact is, the bwb is untrustworthy Shannow - 13/09/2009 05:54:28 PM 979 Views
We must either use all the quotes from the BWB or none of them Sidious - 13/09/2009 06:07:46 PM 1013 Views
Or... Shannow - 13/09/2009 08:41:23 PM 959 Views
Re: Or... Sidious - 14/09/2009 04:46:52 AM 920 Views
But, RJ himself said that the BWB was written from the standpoint of a scholar RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/09/2009 04:42:59 PM 1005 Views
Re: Not Aginor NaClH2O - 13/09/2009 08:17:28 PM 923 Views
It all depends on how you define "powerful" Lanfear - 14/09/2009 02:30:31 AM 1030 Views
I agree 101%. *NM* Yvves - 14/09/2009 03:49:51 AM 518 Views
I think power is much more than raw strength Sidious - 14/09/2009 05:00:10 AM 937 Views
I agree for the most part, but disagree on one thing. Lanfear - 14/09/2009 07:52:10 PM 1097 Views
Re: The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power Bulgakov - 12/09/2009 11:48:03 PM 969 Views
the other reason NaClH2O - 13/09/2009 03:24:24 PM 892 Views
So is graendal similar to lanfear then? Shannow - 13/09/2009 05:41:42 PM 893 Views
Graendal could fight Lanfear and win Sidious - 13/09/2009 06:01:57 PM 1477 Views
Graendal herself says... Shannow - 13/09/2009 09:08:46 PM 921 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... Sidious - 14/09/2009 04:48:37 AM 981 Views
Doesn't Graendal have an Angreal now? Rurouni_Kenshin - 17/09/2009 03:29:10 AM 998 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... Lanfear - 15/09/2009 05:36:53 PM 860 Views
Lanfear was more powerful than Graendal, but Cyndane has less power beetnemesis - 13/09/2009 10:19:35 PM 923 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? Watcher - 13/09/2009 06:05:11 PM 1084 Views
I agree with this Sidious - 13/09/2009 06:15:24 PM 1076 Views
Compulsion=any other deadly weave. Doesn't really change matters beetnemesis - 13/09/2009 10:23:40 PM 951 Views
Excellent point *NM* Shannow - 13/09/2009 10:35:08 PM 528 Views
But it did give her an edge, and against two forsaken. *NM* fionwe1987 - 13/09/2009 11:12:09 PM 494 Views
Hm? When? *NM* beetnemesis - 14/09/2009 09:04:10 PM 432 Views
tPoD, when she compelled Cyndane and Moghedien. *NM* fionwe1987 - 14/09/2009 10:19:23 PM 470 Views
Not at all Sidious - 14/09/2009 04:51:48 AM 997 Views
Using Compulsion on someone doesn't seem mechanically different beetnemesis - 14/09/2009 09:03:41 PM 852 Views
I'm not so sure about that Sidious - 14/09/2009 09:36:45 PM 933 Views
Totally agree Shannow - 14/09/2009 10:26:07 PM 788 Views
I don't agree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/09/2009 04:33:04 PM 1058 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/09/2009 04:34:24 PM 884 Views
But Graendal confronted her... twice! *NM* fionwe1987 - 13/09/2009 07:48:29 PM 445 Views
Apparently only the third time counts *NM* Sidious - 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM 486 Views
But the third time's supposed to be lucky. So that won't count either. *NM* fionwe1987 - 13/09/2009 11:26:18 PM 509 Views
Really? Shannow - 13/09/2009 08:36:33 PM 922 Views
No falsely... fionwe1987 - 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM 1143 Views
That's pretty much my opinion in a nutshell Sidious - 14/09/2009 04:56:15 AM 1103 Views
And, of course, the male and female OP strength ranks might not even correlate that much RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/09/2009 04:41:58 PM 859 Views
They correlate on some critical points Sidious - 14/09/2009 06:57:43 PM 1060 Views
That's not exactly what I'm referring to. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/09/2009 04:36:29 PM 812 Views
But then we are discussing the same thing Sidious - 15/09/2009 06:59:04 PM 946 Views
I think, outside of semantics, our main disagreement doesn't lie amid the higher tiers RugbyPlayingAshaman - 16/09/2009 03:53:09 PM 821 Views
Probably Sidious - 16/09/2009 06:31:27 PM 966 Views
Re: Probably RugbyPlayingAshaman - 16/09/2009 07:19:03 PM 936 Views
Re: Probably Sidious - 16/09/2009 08:59:31 PM 923 Views
Re: Probably RugbyPlayingAshaman - 18/09/2009 07:03:09 PM 1266 Views
Ahh the old debate... fionwe1987 - 17/09/2009 12:42:36 AM 901 Views
Re: Ahh the old debate... Sidious - 17/09/2009 05:26:52 AM 870 Views
I only disagree on one point, I think they are all rather equal in potential, incl. Ishamael RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/09/2009 04:28:12 PM 954 Views
I do think Ishamel is special Sidious - 14/09/2009 07:04:03 PM 1027 Views
He's special the same way any individual is special. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM 990 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. Sidious - 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM 958 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/09/2009 03:48:34 PM 941 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. Sidious - 15/09/2009 04:39:39 PM 909 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/09/2009 04:53:00 PM 920 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. Sidious - 15/09/2009 06:47:45 PM 964 Views
The more interesting question is... AgentOrange - 14/09/2009 06:34:11 PM 853 Views
Hmmm Sidious - 14/09/2009 07:04:34 PM 944 Views
I think we'll see Graendal vs. Aran'gar. fionwe1987 - 14/09/2009 07:31:16 PM 973 Views
Ah yes, that makes sense, and would be great! *NM* Sidious - 14/09/2009 07:40:29 PM 792 Views
Yeah. Though I think its no competition. Graendal has got to be better than a walking tree! fionwe1987 - 14/09/2009 07:50:09 PM 850 Views
They do imply that Graendal is a lot more dangerous than she looks beetnemesis - 14/09/2009 09:08:43 PM 878 Views
I've never underestimated Graendal Sidious - 14/09/2009 09:42:49 PM 931 Views
Yeah... her frivolity was always a red flag for me too. fionwe1987 - 14/09/2009 10:18:40 PM 973 Views
To me, she is the most lethal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/09/2009 05:18:10 PM 722 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 15/09/2009 06:39:20 PM 776 Views
I still like Lanfear more Sidious - 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM 863 Views
Bah! She's an idiot! fionwe1987 - 15/09/2009 07:06:06 PM 870 Views
only in love *NM* Sidious - 15/09/2009 07:23:29 PM 825 Views
Graendal did not beat me and Moghedien Lanfear - 15/09/2009 05:59:39 PM 966 Views
Agreed Sidious - 15/09/2009 06:36:48 PM 851 Views
Ummm... how do we know? fionwe1987 - 15/09/2009 06:40:57 PM 987 Views
Re: Ummm... how do we know? Sidious - 15/09/2009 06:56:21 PM 899 Views
Hmmm... fionwe1987 - 15/09/2009 07:07:45 PM 1096 Views
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