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Re: Well... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 27/09/2012 03:12:06 AM

We are expressly told that Moghedien stood no chance against Lanfear.

I think I've completely forgotten, but where is this?
We are expressly told that Cyndane has enough of a strength advantage over Graendal that she immediately notices it. This when Aes Sedai often can't tell who is the stronger channeler if two channelers are very close in strength, other than both channeling as much as they can to measure the difference.

But that means nothing. Graendal would notice anyone even a little stronger than her. She has probably known only a handful of women able to exceed her, and even if none of them exceeded her by all that much, finding a newcomer with that kind of strength would shock her.
We are also told by Graendal that Cyndane is "MUCH" stronger than Moghedien: "Where did the Spider find someone so MUCH stronger than her?"

Yes, but by what metric? If the Foresaken are all clumped together, she could consider a woman at 98 much stronger than a woman at 88. Wouldn't change the fact that Moghedien isn't necessarily far from the others, given what we got from the prologue.
We are also told that Lanfear is sufficiently stronger than Cyndane that the other Forsaken can clearly sense this difference at first glance.

Again... so? Demandred and Rand were close, but differentiable. Same with Taim or Logain and Rand. Nothing says Cyndane isn't the same distance from Lanfear. Everything supports it in fact.
To me, the important thing to remember is that unless you can effortlessly shield another channeler, any encounter will be dangerous, even if you are significantly stronger. Because weak balefire will kill as easily as strong balefire. And someone who is very fast and skilled with Compulsion can probably strike you much more quickly than your more powerful lightning bolt can, even if you exceed their strength significantly.

Shielding isn't a 100% thing anyway. Shields can be misplaced, or not take hold on one go and take hold the next. We've seen both on screen in the books. Shielding isn't the be all and end all.
We have formed a good idea that you probably need to be between 50% and 70% stronger than someone to shield them relatively effortlessly if they are already holding the source. No one claims that Lanfear exceeds Moghedien by that margin.

The number is 50%. I seem to remember us agreeing to a 66% rule, which said that the person you shielded had to be at least weaker than 66% your strength for you to shield them effectively all the time. This is ignoring skill in shielding, of course.
But a situation of Moghedien at 65 and Lanfear at 95-99 is very possible, especially as we are told Moghedien had no hope of ever matching Lanfear in battle.

I really doubt there is this huge gap between Moghedien and Mesaana that no known character fills. RJ's 21 level list has no empty levels, as far as I know.
Moghedien is an extreme outlier, but given the 50% strength advantage rule for shielding other channelers if they're holding the source, a battle between Lanfear at 95 and Graendal at 85 would be very dangerous, especially if Graendal can strike faster with her speciality Compulsion weave than Lanfear can with her 15% more powerful general weaves.

Its more likely to be Lanfear at 100 (exactly why is she 99? RJ said the strongest woman equals the strongest man, and there's good evidence for Lanfear being the strongest woman) and Graendal at around 96, with Cyndane falling in between at around 98.
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AMOL Prologue : Analysis of Forsaken section *major spoilers* - 19/09/2012 05:47:21 PM 3197 Views
You left out that Taim and Demandred have met before. - 19/09/2012 06:19:01 PM 1450 Views
Part of me keeps screaming Logain, though that can't be right... - 20/09/2012 12:14:00 PM 1412 Views
I thought of Logain as well... - 20/09/2012 06:10:58 PM 1280 Views
We have our answer as to why Cyndane and Moiraine are reduced in power. - 20/09/2012 05:14:01 AM 1333 Views
It was spelled out before. - 20/09/2012 05:25:05 AM 1224 Views
And some of us guessed that's what happened, we just didn't have evidence. *NM* - 20/09/2012 12:04:18 PM 696 Views
Nor a lot of support for the idea... - 22/09/2012 06:28:14 PM 1195 Views
Really? Seemed like the obvious series of events - 23/09/2012 02:32:35 PM 1143 Views
I know... - 23/09/2012 05:30:42 PM 1189 Views
I'm not so sure - 24/09/2012 05:32:50 PM 1178 Views
Why question it? - 25/09/2012 01:40:39 AM 1065 Views
Re: Why question it? - 25/09/2012 06:12:32 AM 1021 Views
Six Chosen... - 20/09/2012 05:19:17 AM 1375 Views
It's fan fiction, but it's cannon fan fiction - 20/09/2012 06:55:18 AM 1344 Views
Demandred - the wasted Forsaken - 20/09/2012 08:14:15 PM 1240 Views
RJ's writing was bad. Sanderson's is far worse. *NM* - 21/09/2012 06:19:04 AM 699 Views
Re: Demandred - the wasted Forsaken - 22/09/2012 07:23:19 PM 1139 Views
Talmanes - 23/09/2012 12:42:27 AM 1548 Views
Re: Talmanes - 02/10/2012 03:27:05 PM 992 Views
Two interesting Forsaken issues you haven't raised - 22/09/2012 06:21:34 PM 1378 Views
Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand - 23/09/2012 02:53:32 AM 1168 Views
Re: Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand - 23/09/2012 05:50:48 PM 1192 Views
I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring - 23/09/2012 06:35:19 PM 1090 Views
Re: I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring - 23/09/2012 07:46:59 PM 1317 Views
The first time we hear about Transmigration is in LOC - 23/09/2012 08:50:10 PM 1326 Views
Why was Ishamael reinstantiated as Nae'blis after his death? - 02/10/2012 10:17:03 PM 1172 Views
I have to wonder at Hessalam - 23/09/2012 01:20:13 PM 1357 Views
Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam - 23/09/2012 06:52:10 PM 1407 Views
Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam - 24/09/2012 05:18:29 PM 1561 Views
I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! - 25/09/2012 03:22:56 AM 1047 Views
Re: I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! - 25/09/2012 06:13:51 AM 1101 Views
So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? Shara or Isle of Madmen back on the table? - 23/09/2012 08:01:03 PM 1165 Views
Re: So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? - 23/09/2012 08:52:48 PM 1276 Views
Interesting... - 23/09/2012 09:06:18 PM 1091 Views
Re: Interesting... - 23/09/2012 11:31:31 PM 1300 Views
Just one comment.. - 23/09/2012 11:53:09 PM 1769 Views
If I had to take a guess right now I'd say he has been setting up various Shadow armies thought the - 23/09/2012 09:30:34 PM 1090 Views
I think at the very least he has recreated the One-and-Eighty male channelers from the AOL... - 23/09/2012 09:34:56 PM 1183 Views
As I said he will almost certainly have Channelers - 23/09/2012 09:47:53 PM 1338 Views
All he needed to do was train 10 guys personally.. - 23/09/2012 09:51:46 PM 995 Views
It took Taim nearly a year to train a dozen men to a place where they could teach - 23/09/2012 10:00:40 PM 962 Views
The world is 25,000 miles by 25,000 miles in size... - 23/09/2012 10:15:22 PM 1071 Views
That is just far fetched ... I think I would laugh out loud if that is the case - 23/09/2012 10:43:37 PM 1072 Views
Direct quote from Demandred refutes this... - 23/09/2012 10:49:10 PM 1051 Views
Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways - 23/09/2012 10:55:00 PM 1076 Views
Re: Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways - 23/09/2012 11:36:54 PM 1087 Views
Not really - 24/09/2012 12:31:48 AM 1126 Views
"My rule is secure." Could Demandred be ruling an entire Mirror World? - 23/09/2012 10:43:51 PM 1166 Views
I can certainly something like this happening - 23/09/2012 10:50:35 PM 968 Views
I'm not sure it's possible... - 24/09/2012 03:02:26 AM 1106 Views
I think ... - 24/09/2012 05:36:38 PM 1079 Views
The changes in Moghedien - 25/09/2012 03:29:15 AM 964 Views
I believe she commented on Graendal's strength, comparing it to Nynaeve or something? - 25/09/2012 11:07:24 PM 1111 Views
Well.. - 25/09/2012 11:15:21 PM 967 Views
Thanks for the quote, but reading that, it kind of implies the opposite, to me... - 25/09/2012 11:35:53 PM 1286 Views
Hmmm.... - 26/09/2012 12:00:33 AM 1025 Views
Hehe, that old argument again. - 26/09/2012 12:09:25 AM 914 Views
Yes. - 26/09/2012 12:58:03 AM 909 Views
I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 26/09/2012 04:11:16 AM 1052 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 26/09/2012 08:53:02 AM 968 Views
Well... - 26/09/2012 09:09:38 AM 936 Views
Re: Well... - 26/09/2012 10:17:03 AM 1072 Views
Nice speculation. I like that type of calculation. - 26/09/2012 10:59:43 AM 1002 Views
Re: Well... - 27/09/2012 03:12:06 AM 959 Views
Re: Well... - 27/09/2012 08:17:07 AM 922 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 27/09/2012 03:00:04 AM 1015 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 27/09/2012 07:23:11 AM 1008 Views
Actually...... - 26/09/2012 02:30:00 AM 1074 Views
Agree with this.. - 26/09/2012 06:12:34 AM 890 Views
Not sure that's completely true.. - 26/09/2012 06:42:51 AM 938 Views
Re: Not sure that's completely true.. - 26/09/2012 03:02:41 PM 1095 Views
This is what I've been saying for years! - 26/09/2012 05:48:01 PM 814 Views
Re: Not sure that's completely true.. - 27/09/2012 03:17:00 AM 991 Views
Probably something like this - 26/09/2012 08:36:40 AM 1011 Views
Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... - 26/09/2012 08:56:32 AM 970 Views
Re: Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... - 26/09/2012 10:01:08 AM 895 Views
Graendal almost has to be Stronger than Nynaeve - 26/09/2012 05:57:35 PM 1148 Views
One thing about that... - 27/09/2012 02:58:56 AM 1036 Views
Possible, but I find it unlikely - 27/09/2012 06:16:56 AM 935 Views
The reason I think that... - 27/09/2012 06:25:48 AM 980 Views
I always assumed Nynaeve at the top was a list he later revised as he decided to bring in - 27/09/2012 06:39:35 AM 1055 Views
Of course that's the correct answer, yes. - 27/09/2012 08:12:45 AM 1116 Views
I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice - 26/09/2012 03:45:36 AM 1015 Views
Re: I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice - 26/09/2012 05:30:36 PM 1086 Views
That is the question I was getting at - 26/09/2012 06:00:03 PM 1048 Views
Re: That is the question I was getting at - 26/09/2012 07:01:34 PM 1071 Views

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