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Let's work with your figures... Shannow Send a noteboard - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM
I agree that the bottom rung of AS are vastly weaker than the top tiers. I just think the main characters in the series are much closer to the top than to the bottom.

Nynaeve is in the top 1% of all women in strength, I'd even postulate that the female forsaken could all be in the top 10% with very little difference in total strength... I won't claim I think that's a fact, there's enough evidence to show that there could be as much as a 15% spread if you include Moghedien.

If there was all that much difference between Lanfear, Graendal and Mesaana it would have been noted by the BA women who have felt their strength. Sheriam only notes that there is a "very strong" woman outside of her tent, but she doesn't know which woman it is so IMO their strengths are close enough to be difficult to judge between them. If Mesaana was 20% lower than Graendal Sheriam would realize which FS was standing outside. Likewise, Alviarin notes that Graendal and Lanfear both allowed her to feel their strength, but rather than postulate that Mesaana must be weaker, she immediately jumps to Mesaana is posing as an AS.

Elayne's potential is probably about 25% weaker than this level (90), which puts her around a 65... Cadsuane another 15% below that would make her about a 55, Moiraine 15% below that makes her about a 45... then the smaller levels between AS start, Sheriam could be a 40 (10% less than Moiraine)... but by the time you get down to the bottom level AS you are at about a 15 (Daigian could be a 10), but there.


Logain is able to break free from 5 average Aes Sedai. Egwene is about 2.5 times as strong as an average Aes Sedai. So that means that Logain could break free from Egwene and Elayne combined (both at full strength).

In order to break free from a shield, you have to be MUCH stronger than the strength of the channelers holding the shield. So that means Logain has to be significantly stronger than the EFFECTIVE strength of Egwene and Elayne combined (both at full strength).

So, if Egwene is at 65 and Elayne is at 65, then that puts them together at more than 120. And for Logain to be able to break free from that would mean he has to be MUCH stronger than their combined strength. And I'm talking about his EFFECTIVE strength, versus their EFFECTIVE strength.

So EFFECTIVELY, a male Forsaken channeler has to be more than twice as strong as Egwene.

And since Lanfear is effectively equal to a top male Forsaken, Lanfear has to be more than twice as strong as Egwene in ABSOLUTE terms (in other words, in terms of brute strength alone).

So if you put Lanfear at 100, then Egwene has to be below 50. In fact, a strength of 40-45 fits the evidence perfectly.

45 would also make Egwene stronger than Amys and Melaine combined - one who is of Moiraine strength and the other who is of average strength.
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 10818 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1983 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1916 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1730 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1812 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1379 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 2030 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1728 Views
Indeed, and not only that - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1403 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1440 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 887 Views
why? - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1513 Views
Re: why? - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1574 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1544 Views
and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1475 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1327 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1395 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1547 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 1315 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 1208 Views
Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 1220 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 1290 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1568 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1509 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1469 Views
Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1353 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1334 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 851 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1430 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1455 Views
the obvious answer - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1310 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1337 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 1289 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1473 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1575 Views
I think all the main characters were forced - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1436 Views
agreed! - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1345 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1373 Views
What? Where? *NM* - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1404 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1368 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1305 Views
Don't links amplify stength? - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 1278 Views
The opposite, actually. - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1366 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1515 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1407 Views
Agreed! *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 772 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1521 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1436 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1645 Views
uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1498 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1377 Views
yup *NM* - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 718 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1450 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1647 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1395 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1399 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1349 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1354 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 1306 Views
agreed - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 1285 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 781 Views
I'll check *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 723 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1404 Views
No people just interpret things differently - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 1221 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 1160 Views
You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 1268 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 1272 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1299 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 1286 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 1184 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 1236 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 1198 Views
I cannot. That's the point... - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 1250 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 1280 Views
Sorry, but no... - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 1279 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1769 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 1266 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 1189 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 1209 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 1263 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 1187 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 1150 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 1261 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 1266 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 1161 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 1361 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1309 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1373 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1330 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 1314 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 1205 Views
Explain one thing to me... - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 1240 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 682 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 1198 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 1226 Views
Can you provide the quote? - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 1149 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1352 Views
which is also suspect - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 1253 Views
No it's not - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 1218 Views
we're in agreement - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 1180 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 1247 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 1208 Views
I don't think it's a lie - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 1270 Views
Agreed - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 1217 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 1212 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 1177 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 1245 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 1292 Views
I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 1299 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 1316 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 1273 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 1297 Views
Why are you entertaining this? - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 1237 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 1253 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 1280 Views
of course it's about skill - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 1273 Views
Not it isn't! - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 1296 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1390 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1489 Views

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