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and yet RJ does Sidious Send a noteboard - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM
She's strong enough to use the Choeden Kal according to the text. Why would they make a super-sa'angreal that any weak woman of the age could use?


Your scale goes above 100. What's the point? We're taking raw strength and dexterity and comparing them to Rand at 100. It doesn't help to go to 150 and say that Moiraine is 45.


The more I read and re-read the series the more I think saidar and saidin are so different that trying to equate a persons strength in saidin to another person's strength in saidar is impossible to do with any sense of accuracy.

There are too many differences and too many exceptions to this rule and "you do it differently with saidin than saidar" moments to make Male/Female comparisons work. We keep going in circles because there is always a loop hole in the argument. What does it mean if Moiraine can make a longer air bridge than Rand? She's obviously not stronger, but saidar makes this easier for her. I'm pretty sure saidin makes gateways easier for men and we've seen that Mask of Mirrors takes almost no power with men but a lot of strength from women (IIRC).

I said this below, but it's like trying to decide who's in better shape, a woman who can run 20 miles or a man who can cycle 50... different scales.


RJ was happy to equate the strongest and weakest of each sex in his answers, and he's also provided bell curves that show similarities in their strength distributions.

The differences you speak of aren't that many. Everything is done with a different weave, but regarding strength there are almost no good examples. Moiraine certainly cannot make a bridge of greater size than Rand - he says a woman weaker than him can, which would mean Graendal or Semirhage for instance, not Moiraine! The other examples don't exist as far as I can remember, but in the end men and women Travel by different means but strength can be seen in their attempts, and RJ matched them pretty soundly.

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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 9210 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1885 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1822 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1628 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1712 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1301 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1909 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1605 Views
Indeed, and not only that Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1288 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1334 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 836 Views
why? darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1422 Views
Re: why? Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1480 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1455 Views
and yet RJ does Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1379 Views
Re: and yet RJ does darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1229 Views
Re: and yet RJ does Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1297 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1437 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 1209 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 1118 Views
Meh... Sidious - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 1131 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 1194 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1479 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1409 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1371 Views
Let's work with your figures... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1256 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1240 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 808 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1342 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1366 Views
the obvious answer darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1205 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1243 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Logain - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 1193 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1377 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1483 Views
I think all the main characters were forced Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1347 Views
agreed! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1258 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1274 Views
What? Where? *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1319 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1278 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1215 Views
Don't links amplify stength? BlackAdder - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 1183 Views
The opposite, actually. Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1269 Views
Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength Logain - 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM 1161 Views
Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM 1377 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Logain - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1415 Views
It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM 1448 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1308 Views
Agreed! *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 722 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1431 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1352 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1554 Views
uhm.... yes she knows Oberonus - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1401 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1284 Views
yup *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 667 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1358 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1541 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1306 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1292 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1263 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1263 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? Logain - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 1223 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 1188 Views
Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM 1147 Views
Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM 1172 Views
Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM 1174 Views
Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM 1227 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* Cannoli - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 736 Views
I'll check *NM* Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 683 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1318 Views
No people just interpret things differently darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 1128 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 1076 Views
I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM 654 Views
You also forget something. Phelix - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 1182 Views
Re: You also forget something. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 1181 Views
Re: You also forget something. Phelix - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1204 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 1189 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 1098 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 1137 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 1113 Views
I cannot. That's the point... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 1167 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 1185 Views
Sorry, but no... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 1194 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... Shannow - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1674 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 1175 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 1080 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 1108 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 1170 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 1093 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 1061 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 1168 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 1168 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 1073 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 1258 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1219 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1277 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1240 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 1213 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 1107 Views
Explain one thing to me... Shannow - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 1140 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 629 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. Shannow - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 1093 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 1132 Views
Can you provide the quote? fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 1063 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1249 Views
which is also suspect darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 1167 Views
No it's not Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 1124 Views
we're in agreement darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 1082 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 1159 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 1127 Views
I don't think it's a lie BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 1178 Views
Agreed Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 1123 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 1122 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 1081 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 1160 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 1200 Views
I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 1204 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 1223 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 1171 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 1207 Views
Why are you entertaining this? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 1151 Views
The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM 663 Views
Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength. fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM 1164 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 1159 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 1187 Views
of course it's about skill darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 1170 Views
Not it isn't! Sidious - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 1203 Views
If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM 1107 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... everynametaken - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1269 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. Heiko - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1382 Views
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