Active Users:783 Time:02/08/2026 04:17:34 PM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder Send a noteboard - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM
It is, after all, merely a representation, and it doesn't make an ounce of actual difference if we take the range to be 1 to 1 million. The inescapable conclusion that most channelers have half of Rand's effective strength is still going to be there.

As for what the standard deviation here is, it seems clear, given the general rule of normal distributions that 68% of the population falls within one standard deviation of the mean, that the standard deviation is going to be rather high because the weakest Aes Sedai has 37.5% of channelers weaker than her according to RJ. This means that the one standard deviation exceeds the range from the weakest AS to a woman of strength 50.

Given a 21 level list, I'd say each level is of 4.75 strength, making the halfway mark to be around 50. Works well enough, overall.


These are just example. Again, I don't care if you think they are right or wrong - I'm trying trying to talk about statistics.

Rand - 25,000 units of OP
Moridin - 24,500
Lanfear - 24,000
Semirhage - 20,000
Nynaeve - 19,500
Moghiedien - 15,000
Egwene - 10,000
Moiraine - 4,000
The average AS - 3,000
Siuan - 2000

Considering the tower has ~1000 AS, and going by normal distribution, there will be 68% of AS within one standard deviation. That means, if we assume 3,000 units is the Tower mean, then 68% will be within one SD of that. The SD will be whatever strength level accounts for 34% of AS greater than the mean (or 34% less than the mean), going in sequential order of strength.

Let's just assume that that the standard deviation in the tower is 500 units. That puts Moirane (4,000 units) in the top 2.5% of the Tower (25 strongest Aes Sedai) and the new Siuan (2,000 units) in the bottom 2.5 % of the Tower (25 weakest Aes Sedai).
Each is 2 standard deviations from the mean of 3,000, which means the middle of the bell curve accounts for 95% of sisters, with Moiraine and Siuan on opposite ends of the curve.

Notice that the "Big Dogs" are well above that. You have to consider that there are very few "Big Dogs" compared to your run of the mill AS.

I believe Sidious' scale was meant to be (or should be) some sort of exponential scale. There is no way that 2 average AS would be able to subdue Rand (in fact, they can't).
Reply to message
The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 10819 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1983 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1916 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1730 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1812 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1382 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 2030 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1728 Views
Indeed, and not only that Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1406 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1441 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 887 Views
why? darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1514 Views
Re: why? Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1575 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1544 Views
and yet RJ does Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1475 Views
Re: and yet RJ does darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1328 Views
Re: and yet RJ does Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1397 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1547 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 1315 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 1210 Views
Meh... Sidious - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 1220 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 1291 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1570 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1509 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1471 Views
Let's work with your figures... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1354 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1336 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 851 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1430 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1455 Views
the obvious answer darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1312 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1338 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Logain - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 1289 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1473 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1575 Views
I think all the main characters were forced Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1436 Views
agreed! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1345 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1375 Views
What? Where? *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1405 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1369 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1306 Views
Don't links amplify stength? BlackAdder - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 1279 Views
The opposite, actually. Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1367 Views
Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength Logain - 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM 1247 Views
Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM 1460 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Logain - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1516 Views
It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM 1561 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1409 Views
Agreed! *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 772 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1522 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1437 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1646 Views
uhm.... yes she knows Oberonus - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1498 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1378 Views
yup *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 718 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1451 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1649 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1397 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1400 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1350 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1354 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? Logain - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 1307 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 1288 Views
Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM 1234 Views
Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM 1279 Views
Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM 1271 Views
Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM 1317 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* Cannoli - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 781 Views
I'll check *NM* Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 723 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1404 Views
No people just interpret things differently darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 1222 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 1161 Views
I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM 700 Views
You also forget something. Phelix - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 1270 Views
Re: You also forget something. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 1272 Views
Re: You also forget something. Phelix - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1300 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 1287 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 1185 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 1238 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 1198 Views
I cannot. That's the point... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 1253 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 1281 Views
Sorry, but no... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 1279 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... Shannow - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1769 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 1267 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 1191 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 1210 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 1264 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 1187 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 1152 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 1262 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 1268 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 1162 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 1362 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1310 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1374 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1331 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 1315 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 1206 Views
Explain one thing to me... Shannow - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 1240 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 682 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. Shannow - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 1200 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 1226 Views
Can you provide the quote? fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 1150 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1353 Views
which is also suspect darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 1254 Views
No it's not Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 1218 Views
we're in agreement darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 1180 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 1250 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 1210 Views
I don't think it's a lie BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 1270 Views
Agreed Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 1219 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 1212 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 1178 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 1247 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 1292 Views
I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 1301 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 1317 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 1274 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 1299 Views
Why are you entertaining this? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 1238 Views
The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM 710 Views
Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength. fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM 1263 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 1254 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 1281 Views
of course it's about skill darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 1275 Views
Not it isn't! Sidious - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 1297 Views
If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM 1209 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... everynametaken - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1392 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. Heiko - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1489 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes