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Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder Send a noteboard - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM

The 1-100 is a RELATIVE scale, not an absolute scale and thus what wiki says does not apply. We do not know the standard deviation, so we don't know what exactly the mean is in that scale. It will certainly not be 50, based on the books.

What do you mean by a relative scale here? And how are you assuming that this is what Sidious is implying? He's always characterized it as absolute, with 100 representing the number of units of power Rand can channel, and 1 the number of units Morghase can.

Because the post title says "relative strengths" and he says that 100 represents Rand's level. All the others' strengths are relative to Rand.

More importantly, RJ said very clearly that effective strength had a bell curve distribution. He did not mention any relative scale at all, only that there were 21 levels to channeling strength. I see no reason for us to work with some mysterious relative scale in this already complicated situation.

Yes, I agree. Though if RJ had 21 levels, I would assume some are less than 1 standard deviation apart.
And a mean of 50 is quite well supported within the text. It just goes against what Siddy and Shannow have assumed for years because they never let the implications of RJ's bell curve statement sink in.

Well, to be quite honest, the bell curve reaches out to infinity in each direction, so limiting to 100 is kinda silly. But we have a put a limit, so let's say it IS 100.
In that case, 50 is the mean, but what is the standard deviation? If RJ has said that 62.5% of all channelers in RL are stronger than the weakest AS (based on your quote that 62.5% of channelers are strong enough to BE AS), then, that means the weakest AS is much less than one standard deviation from the mean of 50. In fact, she is less than 1/2 a standard deviation from the mean.

So, at one standard deviation from the mean, the strength level between average and one-SD stronger AS is twice that of the difference between average and weakest. As you move futher out, you will see that the difference in strength between the channeler in question and the average larger and larger compared to the difference between average AS and weakest AS.
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 11101 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 2142 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1983 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1780 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1859 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1434 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 2104 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1776 Views
Indeed, and not only that Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1450 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1503 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 917 Views
why? darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1572 Views
Re: why? Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1626 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1593 Views
and yet RJ does Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1533 Views
Re: and yet RJ does darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1385 Views
Re: and yet RJ does Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1448 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1600 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 1384 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 1263 Views
Meh... Sidious - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 1279 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 1353 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1638 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1559 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1536 Views
Let's work with your figures... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1414 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1386 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 877 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1497 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1503 Views
the obvious answer darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1368 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1384 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Logain - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 1340 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1544 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1622 Views
I think all the main characters were forced Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1486 Views
agreed! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1393 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1439 Views
What? Where? *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1452 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1421 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1380 Views
Don't links amplify stength? BlackAdder - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 1327 Views
The opposite, actually. Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1416 Views
Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength Logain - 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM 1323 Views
Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM 1508 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Logain - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1568 Views
It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM 1606 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1472 Views
Agreed! *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 812 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1580 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1500 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1705 Views
uhm.... yes she knows Oberonus - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1564 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1433 Views
yup *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 747 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1510 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1701 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1447 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1465 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1413 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1413 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? Logain - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 1365 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 1340 Views
Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM 1296 Views
Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM 1334 Views
Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM 1335 Views
Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM 1377 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* Cannoli - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 831 Views
I'll check *NM* Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 762 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1449 Views
No people just interpret things differently darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 1271 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 1216 Views
I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM 729 Views
You also forget something. Phelix - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 1328 Views
Re: You also forget something. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 1321 Views
Re: You also forget something. Phelix - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1357 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 1351 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 1243 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 1297 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 1254 Views
I cannot. That's the point... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 1323 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 1329 Views
Sorry, but no... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 1362 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... Shannow - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1826 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 1323 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 1248 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 1255 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 1319 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 1242 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 1206 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 1311 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 1323 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 1217 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 1463 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1370 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1432 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1394 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 1365 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 1257 Views
Explain one thing to me... Shannow - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 1324 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 710 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. Shannow - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 1265 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 1297 Views
Can you provide the quote? fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 1206 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1406 Views
which is also suspect darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 1302 Views
No it's not Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 1261 Views
we're in agreement darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 1241 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 1299 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 1259 Views
I don't think it's a lie BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 1323 Views
Agreed Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 1283 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 1277 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 1232 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 1296 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 1356 Views
I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 1350 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 1367 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 1324 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 1359 Views
Why are you entertaining this? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 1290 Views
The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM 739 Views
Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength. fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM 1324 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 1304 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 1335 Views
of course it's about skill darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 1345 Views
Not it isn't! Sidious - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 1389 Views
If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM 1270 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... everynametaken - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1443 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. Heiko - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1548 Views
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