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I agree! Dragonsworn Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM
What Tom makes me thinking on here is the concept of the hermeneutic circle for interpreting text. By delving into lots of science fiction and/or fantasy literature you as a reader may get a greater understanding of that particular genres cultural origin, its literary historical context and you can get into the psychology of the text and of the author.

An example would be to read The Wheel of Time over and over again to examine and analyse the historical and religious inspirations of the world, its cultures (ex, the Aiel or Seanchan) or in what way Robert Jordan's own personal experiences (f. ex. Vietnam) has influenced the characters morals, ethics, thinking and actions and /or the overarching morals of the world that make people act or think in the way they do. Another thing you can do is to try to disect the concept of good and evil and in what way it manifests itself in the Wheel of Time. Just an example.

This way of approaching texts can be applied to probably all texts and the texts within a particular established and defined genre (if those exist)

This is all fine and can act to strengthen your intellectual understanding of a text or genre. The problem arises when you seldom diverge from a given text or genre. And just like Tom said there is nothing wrong with enjoying novels or movies within a particular genre or of a certain kind (ex. romance or action).

By broadening your horizons to genres you never usually visit you also broaden your intellectual understanding. By broadening into all sorts of genres, if only by a little, and into non-fiction (for ex. sociology, chemistry, history, mathematics, social science, religion etc) you gain a greater understanding of what the world is and why it works the way it does. And the same can be applied to literature if you get into several different genres.

To do the above example with the Wheel of Time you need to get into some philosophy, history, psychology, sociology etc, to be able to do that kind of analysis. Literature, for instance, cannot be explained solely through sci-fi, since it consists of so many other parts.

If you read works from different genres and non-fiction then you can see more of what the world of literature looks like, for example, its historical and ethical contexts and you can see why the genre of (ex. sci-fi) looks and works the way it does.

Of course there are books, movies, music and genres of these that we all enjoy maybe a little more than we do the others but like Tom said:

Sometimes we need to watch Schindler’s List or Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Diversions are useful, but not at the expense of growing intellectually, emotionally or psychologically.


I couldn't agree more!

I hope this makes any sense.
"I didn't have much to say to anybody but kept to myself and my books. With my eyes closed, I would touch a familiar book and draw it's fragrance deep inside me. This was enough to make me happy."
— Haruki Murakami (Norwegian Wood
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2182 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1259 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1232 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 627 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1156 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1262 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1292 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1244 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1220 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1262 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1194 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1209 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1167 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1221 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1192 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1182 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1283 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1178 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1211 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1276 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1263 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1357 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1262 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1201 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1292 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1220 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1361 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1298 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1291 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1263 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1127 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1314 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1175 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1221 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1491 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1133 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1315 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1246 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1294 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1279 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1338 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1210 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1066 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1178 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1261 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1191 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 576 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1264 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1143 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1296 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1248 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1195 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1215 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1174 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1121 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1198 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1258 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 525 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1288 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1201 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1190 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1127 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1124 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1188 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1241 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1252 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1193 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1223 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1187 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1195 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1318 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1162 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1166 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1174 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1166 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 615 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1318 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1222 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1153 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1198 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1347 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1130 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1165 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1183 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1137 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1134 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1186 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1162 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1060 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1124 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1177 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1259 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 578 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1177 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1208 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1285 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1178 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1207 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1122 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1119 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1249 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1113 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1108 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1193 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1147 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1162 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1084 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 568 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1138 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1182 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1777 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1125 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1272 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1277 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1172 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1314 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1175 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1096 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1116 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1194 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1128 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1285 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1155 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1141 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1158 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1107 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1198 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 540 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1179 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1229 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1102 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1173 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1151 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1092 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1132 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1186 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1171 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1177 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 570 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1099 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1211 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1168 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1247 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1228 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1193 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1140 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1175 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1144 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 596 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 561 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1141 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1161 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1130 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 602 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1262 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1158 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1177 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1232 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1191 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1186 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1147 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1181 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1130 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1265 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1263 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1241 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1138 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1115 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1247 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1216 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1160 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1217 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1223 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1268 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1279 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1195 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1256 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 488 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 620 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 597 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1189 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1113 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1152 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 595 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 583 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 597 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1169 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 986 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1293 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1221 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1193 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1145 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1297 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1208 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1227 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1154 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1311 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1098 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1201 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1173 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1209 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1170 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1110 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1209 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1128 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1243 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1141 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1044 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1193 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1241 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1301 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1216 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1338 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1276 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1172 Views

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