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Yep. Lupine Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM
The problem is precisely book that place themselves too neatly in a genre. Those are overwhelmingly not very good.

Though they can be fun.;) But yes, those are the books I was referring to when I talked about the popcorn core of each genre. Authors do themselves a great injury when they use genre-specific cliches to frame their narratives. When that happens, the ending and much of the content is predetermined, so how can it really be complex and layered? It's no new problem either; late medieval writers in England relied way too much, imo, on the tropes of romance. That's why you get only a handful of really interesting literary works between Beowulf and Shakespeare.

The "genre" of tragedy forms the exception to this rule, I suppose... most of the beloved classics are formulated along those rather specific lines. I think they make it work by turning predictability on its head; instead of a quiet writerly cop-out, it's one of the central narrative themes (presented as fate, predetermination, etc.), and never an easy pill to swallow. Very clever, those ancients.

But I also have an issue with placing everything that deviates from a fact-based world into the "fantasy and science fiction" category. This dilutes the genre too much, and renders it useless.

I agree, but the line is always going to be somewhat arbitrary.
spacespacesplLupine
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Still Paul's friendand Pippin's mum
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2200 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1271 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1245 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 636 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1172 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1273 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1305 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1259 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1236 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1279 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1207 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1222 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1179 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1231 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1206 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1196 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1297 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1192 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1219 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1287 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1275 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1369 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1272 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1211 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1307 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1230 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1373 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1312 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1303 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1277 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1140 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1328 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1188 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1233 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1506 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1149 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1330 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1258 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1308 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1292 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1352 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1222 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1079 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1191 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1271 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1205 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 583 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1272 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1155 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1310 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1262 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1208 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1229 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1188 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1134 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1222 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1271 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 532 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1301 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1215 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1203 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1141 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1136 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1201 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1255 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1265 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1206 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1235 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1198 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1208 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1331 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1175 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1179 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1187 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1177 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 622 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1332 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1234 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1168 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1210 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1362 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1145 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1175 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1195 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1151 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1151 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1199 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1174 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1073 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1138 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1191 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1273 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 586 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1189 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1222 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1300 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1191 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1220 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1134 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1131 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1266 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1126 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1122 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1205 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1164 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1175 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1095 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 574 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1152 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1195 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1792 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1141 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1287 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1287 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1184 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1331 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1189 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1113 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1131 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1206 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1141 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1302 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1171 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1156 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1173 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1119 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1207 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 548 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1194 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1241 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1113 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1187 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1181 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1102 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1143 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1197 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1186 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1189 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 576 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1112 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1223 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1182 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1260 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1240 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1205 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1157 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1191 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1156 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 605 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 567 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1152 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1174 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1143 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 608 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1274 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1169 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1190 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1243 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1204 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1199 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1162 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1215 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1142 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1279 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1275 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1260 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1151 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1127 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1256 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1232 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1171 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1230 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1235 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1279 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1292 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1209 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1267 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 496 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 627 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 606 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1203 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1122 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1164 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 602 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 594 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 605 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1185 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 1000 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1304 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1233 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1208 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1158 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1310 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1218 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1241 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1166 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1324 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1112 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1213 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1183 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1220 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1184 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1130 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1224 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1141 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1258 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1153 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1056 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1205 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1261 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1312 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1229 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1362 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1290 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1186 Views

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