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Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting Camilla Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM
It refuses to provide the satisfaction, which makes us aware of that expectation perhaps more than if it had provided it. Certainly that is the case for me. If it had provided perfect closure, I would have closed it and moved on. I think the reason why I keep returning to it is because I am never allowed to feel that.

The book, for me, can be defined only by what it lacks. Where are the real people (as opposed to ersatz characters)? Where is the question about the propriety of revenge? Where is the issue of Dantes' hubris? The closest we get to it is his half-hearted sorrow over little Edward de Villefort's poisoning, which is almost an afterthought. And look at how poorly Dantes treats Faria - he doesn't take Faria's writings about a unified, independent Italy for publication or even seem to care about Faria's goals and dreams. He just uses Faria's information and Faria's tunnel for his own gain. Yet there is no reflection on that.

I agree that the characters are not what they should be in this book. It is one of my main problems with it.

The question about the propriety of revenge, though? It permeates the book. As Jen noted, the scene of the execution is quite interesting in that respect in that it provides a counterpoint in the official (rather cruel) form of justice. As I see it, there are three voices in the discussion within the book, neither one of which is really dominant:

The first is that vengeance is right -- this is the Count's position. It provides the main tone, the force of the story &c. All the while, though, it is tempered by the Christian mores of the society that surrounds the Count, and also in the voice of Faria, which labels Vegeance as wrong and tells you to forgive your enemies. This is what is taken up in the end when it is made explicit in the Count's doubts. And the third voice then ties this dialogue of the other two to the justice of the state, centred on the execution scene. All the while this is surrounded by variations on the theme -- the Corsicans, Bertuccio, Benedetto...

Regarding Faria's book, I think you will find he did take it with him when he visited the prison at the end. He could not have taken it when escaping, as it would have been ruined by the water.


I think it is also of some importance as a symbol - when leaves the prison he has one purpose, righting what he sees as injustice (that the state has missed or approved) with everything he encounters along the way designed to further that end. By the end of the book he has both had his revenge and also is no longer consumed by it, in fact he is starting to question his actions. By taking the book at this point it works to symbolise that he changed from revenge being his only reason for living to a more Fariaesque philosophy and will actually live in the world.


I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2718 Views
Le plot. - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1479 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1645 Views
Les characters. - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1586 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1600 Views
Hmm. - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1531 Views
Re: Hmm. - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1578 Views
Re: Hmm. - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1525 Views
Re: Hmm. - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1733 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1550 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1679 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1610 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1648 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1754 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1644 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1477 Views
There is no such thing - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1534 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1583 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1564 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1540 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1593 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1645 Views
I'm never petulant - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1489 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1654 Views
I think one important question to ask is... - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1637 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1602 Views
the potentially removable part... - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1613 Views
I have read both - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1651 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1587 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1702 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1574 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1758 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 819 Views
*NM* - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 810 Views
The book was very childish. - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1700 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 852 Views
No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1633 Views
You know, this is a problem. - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1611 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1688 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1563 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1553 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1626 Views
Read His Master's Voice - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1540 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1633 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1632 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1535 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1597 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1539 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1575 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1651 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1701 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1568 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1556 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1480 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1534 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1557 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1691 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1527 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1500 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1345 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1516 Views
True - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1450 Views
Nice tie-in! - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1513 Views
- 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1578 Views
The approve of this message. - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1600 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1522 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1576 Views
I honestly can't remember. - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1519 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1568 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1541 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1598 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1739 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1589 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1600 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 814 Views
In your opinion - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1618 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1596 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1584 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1474 Views
Ha! - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1534 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1587 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 771 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1629 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1696 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1463 Views
On what basis? - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1646 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1651 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1529 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1620 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1567 Views
Regarding comfort zones - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1639 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1681 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1621 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1694 Views
Possibly - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1536 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1569 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1557 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1693 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1524 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1532 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1539 Views
why is it a bonus? - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1511 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1784 Views
I did - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1566 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1634 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1574 Views
Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1542 Views
Re: Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1556 Views
Re: The book was very childish. - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1573 Views
I read it in French - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1453 Views
So. I really liked it. - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1717 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1545 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1607 Views
We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1682 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1694 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1665 Views
Feel free to. - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1630 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1549 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1621 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1475 Views
My touchy-feely approach? - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1540 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1550 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1541 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1507 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1527 Views
Glad to hear it. - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1401 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1579 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1645 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1552 Views
Well, so what will it be? - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1484 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1440 Views
Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1691 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1568 Views
Right then. - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1536 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1598 Views
And ANOTHER THING - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1461 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 882 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1631 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1574 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1530 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1673 Views
It was mildly interesting. - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1611 Views
I think you're misreading that... - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1668 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1648 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1517 Views
fine. *NM* - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 813 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1559 Views
What discussion? - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1581 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1657 Views
Which I still think we can. - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1528 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1621 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1569 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1701 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1497 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1566 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1485 Views
Deary me. - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1772 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1525 Views
Not at all. - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1671 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1656 Views
Thank you. - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 2224 Views
Please ban me, then. - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1488 Views
Nods - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 1989 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 792 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1435 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1692 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1489 Views
Oh i'm not complaining - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1530 Views
Sure sounded like it. - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1555 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1548 Views
Absolutely. - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1498 Views
Agreed - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1537 Views
Well, you should have known better! - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1535 Views
I do. - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1520 Views
Thought you did - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1503 Views
- 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1536 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 772 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 801 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1486 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1448 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1514 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1460 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1514 Views
Well I'm late to the party - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1514 Views
No, you're early - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1383 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 835 Views
A few comments - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1801 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1453 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1520 Views
Sure. - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1503 Views

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