I liked Luigi Vampa, mostly because I am a sucker for he idea of the literate bandit. And possibly also because he is just hinted at. Too many of the characters in this book are painted with strokes that are too broad, which means the minor characters become the more interesting.
I also liked Noirtier. He was an actual character, I felt, not just a melodramatic plot tool. His son might have reached the same height with just a few more touches of shadowing. He had great potential in the beginning (at a time when he was really the only character who interested me), but became less nuanced towards the end.
I was not a great fan of Valentine (but for some reason I do not mind young Morrel as much).
I liked all three of them, though I only liked Noirtier through what he actually did in the novel
You mean his cunning escapes and Jacobin fervour and calm cool in the face of the knowledge that the police were looking for him? Or the kindly grandfather bit? I loved his politics and how he dealt with it.
The other two I liked as they felt like they could have been interesting lead characters in a Dumas novel (as good the earlier days of Noirtier). In Morrel's case it was purely about personality - young men who are handy with a sword, full of youthful energy, sense of duty and a disregard for selfpreservation is something Dumas does well.
True. But I would have liked him to have more shades of grey. As it is he is really Raoul from Vicomte de Bragelonne: a noble, heroic, good side character rather than one with the interest of a lead. I am worried that if he were to carry a book alone we would get The Last Cavalier.
I was also fascinated by the daughter of Danglars. That was a fairly unequivocal reference to lesbianism, and I can't believe I did not catch it the last time I read it. I was surprised at how stated it was in a book of this nature. Is the moral that a girl can only be independent if she renounce men altogether? Or the reverse, that if she desires such independence, she must be a lesbian? I am intrigued.
Yes, I missed that when I read it the first time. I took it to be more the latter - if she wasn't a lesbian, she would have let herself be married of in the family interest and made the best of it.
There is another thing that has been bugging me about the characters, and I cannot decide whether it is a stroke of genius or just off. They all change so much between the first and second periods. It is not only the count who completely changes personality -- they all do (except Mercedes and Villefort). Danglars perhaps least of the baddies, but Fernand? It is quite astonishing.
I found it a bit off. Danglars and Fernand felt to me like they had just risen to quickly to be possible.
True. I never had a problem with that when it came to Danglars, precisely because he had been established as a schemer with ambitions already in the beginning. I can see him getting rich by stabbing people in the back along the way. Fernand is a bigger problem for me. He never seemed to have the know-how or ambition. There is of course the possibility that betraying Dantés gave him the idea to petray Ali Pasha when he was in a position to do so, and that that set him up with the money &c., but I find it less natural.
A word on the women, finally. Mercedes, Valentine, Madame de Villefort, Mlle Danglars, Madame Danglars, Haidee. I was suprised at the breadth, I confess. Some are obvious angels (Valentine, primarily), some obvious monsters (Madame de Villefort) -- in fact, it is interesting that it is in Villefort's house that we get the clichéd extremes of Woman.
I do think it was a shame the Valentine part wasn't written differently, so that there could have been doubts when the doctor implictated her.
That would have been good. Do you mean doubt on the reader's part?
Mercedes is interesting in that she did not wait or kill herself (the two options really open to her as a melodramatic heroine), but actually married Fernand (reneging on all the vows she made initially). She breaks out of the pattern and becomes one of the betrayers. This is of course why she cannot be awarded love in the end (which makes the end dissonant, in a way I did not like but found intriguing -- because the reason why I did not like it was that it did not fall into the expectations the genre and the earlier eulogising of Mercedes had created in me).
I thought it was interesting, Mercedes marrying Fernand felt like she was acting in a more modern way but the end showed her being punished for it.
Yes. I suspect this book is a ripe field for a feminist analysis.
And Haidee. She has an interesting back story, but no colour herself, if that makes any sense. I am always a bit disappointed in her.
Her lack of depth is a shame but it does make her an interesting symbol in the story as well. She is there to start with purely as a tool and that is her only purpose, so Dantes doesn't need her to have depth, but ends there as part of the move on from revenge.
I agree. Her function in the plot is reflected in the Count's use of her in the beginning (again, the plot as theme bit intrigues me). But the change from slave to love object strikes me as too sudden.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
structured procrastinator
The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open!
- 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM
2718 Views
Les characters.
- 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM
1587 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal?
- 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM
1551 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography?
- 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM
1680 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak.
- 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM
1610 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak.
- 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM
1649 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying.
- 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM
1754 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting
- 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM
1644 Views
He would not have known the book would be ruined by water. He thought he was being buried.
- 27/01/2010 02:15:02 PM
1532 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text.
- 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM
1478 Views
There is no such thing
- 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM
1534 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel.
- 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM
1583 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting
- 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM
1540 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol.
- 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM
1593 Views
I think one important question to ask is...
- 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM
1638 Views
I like it, but it is purely on the adventure story level, and I've read the unabridged version.
- 26/01/2010 12:03:01 AM
1464 Views
I'm fairly certain I read the unabridged version. It was 1500 pages. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 02:36:10 AM
827 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time.
- 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM
1602 Views
I have read both
- 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM
1651 Views
I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general.
- 27/01/2010 01:44:46 AM
1647 Views
Re: I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general.
- 27/01/2010 01:48:11 AM
1578 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter:
- 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM
1759 Views
The book was very childish.
- 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM
1704 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM
852 Views
No, it really isn't.
- 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM
1633 Views
You know, this is a problem.
- 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM
1612 Views
Thank God, I've never even heard of "Skol". Popov, yes, but Skol?
- 26/01/2010 03:49:08 AM
1600 Views
I've not tried it, but every time I go into liquor stores, it sits on the bottom shelf.
- 26/01/2010 03:57:03 AM
1499 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above.
- 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM
1689 Views
Re: No, it really isn't.
- 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM
1553 Views
Having Camilla concur with me on literary matters is very encouraging.
- 26/01/2010 01:37:23 PM
1581 Views
- 26/01/2010 01:37:23 PM
1581 Views
I do not agree with your complete dismissal of The Count of Monte Cristo, though
- 26/01/2010 04:58:58 PM
1591 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom
- 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM
1634 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common.
- 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM
1598 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays
- 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM
1539 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you?
- 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM
1576 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors
- 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM
1651 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled.
- 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM
1701 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely
- 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM
1568 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction.
- 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM
1556 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels
- 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM
1480 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted.
- 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM
1534 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though
- 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM
1557 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element.
- 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM
1691 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader
- 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM
1527 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree.
- 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM
1500 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose
- 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM
1346 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over
- 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM
1516 Views
Your unscientific anecdotal evidence sounds very odd to me.
- 28/01/2010 12:15:10 AM
1570 Views
It might. I'm not purporting to speak for all of humanity (at least on this point).
- 28/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
1649 Views
- 28/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
1649 Views
So, what you're saying is that watching the 2002 movie was sufficient? Good!
*NM*
- 26/01/2010 06:34:53 AM
808 Views
*NM*
- 26/01/2010 06:34:53 AM
808 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question
- 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM
1524 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book?
- 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM
1576 Views
I honestly can't remember.
- 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM
1520 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written.
- 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM
1568 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better.
- 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM
1542 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good.
- 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM
1598 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you?
- 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM
1585 Views
- 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM
1585 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me.
- 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM
1474 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level.
- 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM
1631 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog
- 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM
1696 Views
On what basis?
- 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM
1646 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed.
- 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM
1652 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent.
- 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM
1529 Views
Regarding comfort zones
- 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM
1639 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here...
- 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM
1681 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here...
- 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM
1621 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed.
- 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM
1695 Views
Possibly
- 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM
1536 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification.
- 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM
1570 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification.
- 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM
1557 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg.
- 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM
1694 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down.
- 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM
1524 Views
Heh heh heh. Pink cardigan-wearing suburban cul-de-sac. I like it.
*NM*
- 27/01/2010 03:11:25 PM
790 Views
*NM*
- 27/01/2010 03:11:25 PM
790 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg.
- 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM
1533 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus.
- 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM
1539 Views
why is it a bonus?
- 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM
1512 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete.
- 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM
1784 Views
Well, you wouldn't grow tired of us calling a novel shit if you chose a novel that wasn't shit.
- 27/01/2010 03:11:57 PM
1524 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones
- 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM
1634 Views
So. I really liked it.
- 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM
1717 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand.
- 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM
1546 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand.
- 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM
1608 Views
We were talking about this last night.
- 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM
1682 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night.
- 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM
1694 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown.
- 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM
1666 Views
Feel free to.
- 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM
1630 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit.
- 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM
1549 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit.
- 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM
1621 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach.
- 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM
1475 Views
My touchy-feely approach?
- 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM
1541 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis.
- 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM
1550 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion?
- 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM
1542 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here.
- 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM
1507 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here.
- 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM
1580 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then.
- 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM
1645 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then.
- 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM
1553 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours?
- 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM
1440 Views
- 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM
1440 Views
Mine. Which is more complicated than a simple rejection. That is what I am saying.
- 01/02/2010 12:53:58 PM
1460 Views
Do it. I'd read that.
- 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM
1691 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two.
- 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM
1598 Views
I call bullshit. I have been conducting the debate in a measured fashion.
- 27/01/2010 04:50:35 PM
1566 Views
And ANOTHER THING
- 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM
1461 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM*
- 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM
883 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing.
- 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM
1631 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing.
- 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM
1574 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults.
- 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM
1531 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions...
- 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM
1673 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults.
- 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM
1649 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do.
- 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM
1518 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not.
- 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM
1559 Views
What discussion?
- 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM
1581 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms.
- 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM
1658 Views
Which I still think we can.
- 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM
1528 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all.
- 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM
1622 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all.
- 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM
1569 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on.
- 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM
1566 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on.
- 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM
1485 Views
Deary me.
- 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM
1772 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates?
- 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM
1526 Views
Not at all.
- 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM
1671 Views
I'm sorry as well - if I had any kind of willpower, it wouldn't have gotten that far.
- 27/01/2010 06:29:43 PM
1595 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club"
- 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM
1436 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions?
- 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM
1692 Views
Yes, shorter would be good.
- 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM
1489 Views
Well, you should have known better!
- 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM
1536 Views
- 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM
1536 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED.
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM
772 Views
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM
772 Views
Well I'm late to the party
- 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM
1514 Views
No, you're early
- 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM
1383 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM*
- 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM
835 Views
Interesting way of dismissing what has already been discussed about the book
- 03/02/2010 04:22:26 AM
1658 Views
Nah, there's been discussion, here and there inbetween the fighting.
*NM*
- 03/02/2010 04:39:24 PM
780 Views
*NM*
- 03/02/2010 04:39:24 PM
780 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience?
- 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM
1521 Views


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