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Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. lyringlas Send a noteboard - 09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM

That's all I meant by my statement. His writing reflects the times, but moreso in a very conservative community. I feel like he has as many influential women in his story as there are powerful women in classical history.Luthien, Galadriel, Eowyn to history's Cleopatra, Jeanne-Antoinette Poisson, Octavia Augusta, Elizabeth...I mean, the goddesses are almost nonexistent in his mythology. With how heavily influences pantheotic writing is by ancient Greece and Rome, you'd think he would have a couple of goddesses that stand out a bit; the best that can be said for most of the women (namely the goddesses, because we don't see many others) in the series is they serve as companions to powerful/influential men. Sad really.

Don't get me wrong though, I love Tolkien.


I think the most-mentioned Vala in the books has to be Elbereth/Varda, and Yavanna is important as well. They're not really active in battle of course, but Elbereth is mentioned as being the Vala most hated/feared by Melkor/Morgoth. And then there's Melian, Luthien's mother, who after all is a Maia on a level with Sauron. Melian is companion to Thingol, yeah, but it's obvious that she's both wiser and more powerful than he.

Edit: By the way, I'm not sure which Octavia you mean by Octavia Augusta, but surely Livia and Agrippina - or, in a very different style, Fulvia - were more influential regardless.



I meant Livia Augusta, not Octavia, sorry. I was not thinking and immediately putting the subordinate form of Octavius for hers...talk about sexism :P.. Livia was one fairly influential woman. I mean, what other matron was made a Vestal Virgin and nominated for pater patriae post mortem by the senate?
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The greatest King in Fantasy Dannymac - 09/04/2010 05:18:42 AM 2347 Views
King Arthur. Hands down. Ghavrel - 09/04/2010 06:40:15 AM 1716 Views
I would argue with you. Dannymac - 09/04/2010 06:54:53 AM 1674 Views
That's the point, though. Arthur's humanity is what makes him so admirable. Ghavrel - 09/04/2010 06:59:07 AM 1717 Views
I have to agree with Dannymac LadyLorraine - 09/04/2010 02:04:44 PM 1685 Views
But he's not in a modern fantasy novel. Ghavrel - 09/04/2010 07:37:14 PM 1764 Views
when I read the actual book... LadyLorraine - 10/04/2010 12:08:21 AM 1698 Views
"The actual character"? Which of the countless different ones? *NM* Legolas - 10/04/2010 12:21:00 AM 811 Views
i mean the actual character of Arthur in the actual book. LadyLorraine - 10/04/2010 12:51:44 AM 1812 Views
There isn't an "actual book." Le Morte d'Arthur is a relatively early compilation of legends. *NM* Ghavrel - 10/04/2010 03:09:40 AM 845 Views
Re: i mean the actual character of Arthur in the actual book. Camilla - 10/04/2010 08:17:12 AM 1701 Views
I'm going with the most likely historical version of King Arthur RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 06:45:26 PM 1805 Views
My money is still on Aragorn Camilla - 09/04/2010 12:47:43 PM 1807 Views
Aragorn is so awesome... LadyLorraine - 09/04/2010 02:05:42 PM 1652 Views
Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. Legolas - 09/04/2010 02:18:30 PM 1624 Views
Re: Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 02:49:45 PM 1701 Views
Hm nossy - 09/04/2010 03:23:53 PM 1763 Views
Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. Legolas - 09/04/2010 03:32:00 PM 1653 Views
Re: Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 03:45:37 PM 1932 Views
I can't agree about the goddesses. Legolas - 09/04/2010 04:34:15 PM 1753 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM 1654 Views
If Tacitus and Graves were accurate imlad - 09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM 1795 Views
Re: If Tacitus and Graves were accurate lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:26:43 PM 1678 Views
I rather liked her depiction in Rome. Legolas - 09/04/2010 05:34:37 PM 1737 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:45:06 PM 1793 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. Camilla - 10/04/2010 11:14:26 AM 1800 Views
I don't know if I'd call it bad, per se. Legolas - 10/04/2010 11:37:55 AM 1958 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM 1748 Views
Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. Legolas - 09/04/2010 05:31:42 PM 1699 Views
Re: Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:44:03 PM 1682 Views
Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 06:55:23 PM 1740 Views
Re: Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but... lyringlas - 09/04/2010 07:04:37 PM 1733 Views
thought of a better example: Arien the Maia of the Sun was single and far more powerful than Tilion RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 09:17:34 PM 1987 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. imlad - 09/04/2010 05:06:49 PM 1834 Views
That was my first assumption too, but evidently not. *NM* Legolas - 09/04/2010 05:22:39 PM 777 Views
I changed it to Livia Augusta Sheesh, you people-- a guy mistypes one time!! *NM* lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:29:03 PM 854 Views
I call bullshit Camilla - 09/04/2010 08:09:49 PM 1631 Views
Re: I call bullshit lyringlas - 09/04/2010 08:31:16 PM 1633 Views
Re: I call bullshit Camilla - 10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM 1737 Views
I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. lyringlas - 10/04/2010 05:12:07 PM 1721 Views
Re: I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. Camilla - 12/04/2010 11:00:23 AM 1625 Views
Exactly. Comet Sedai - 13/04/2010 03:08:46 AM 1742 Views
Re: Exactly. Camilla - 13/04/2010 08:54:01 AM 1845 Views
I was going to say something similar. nossy - 09/04/2010 03:21:45 PM 1645 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... Camilla - 09/04/2010 08:00:25 PM 1612 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... lyringlas - 09/04/2010 08:37:12 PM 1667 Views
He's good, but then he just doesn't have to face so many things. Legolas - 09/04/2010 02:22:04 PM 1956 Views
Doesn't have to face many things? Camilla - 09/04/2010 07:59:27 PM 1696 Views
As in, there are many important aspects of being king he doesn't have to face. Legolas - 09/04/2010 08:07:16 PM 1703 Views
well technically speaking he WAS the king when he did all those things. LadyLorraine - 10/04/2010 12:15:26 AM 1685 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? lyringlas - 09/04/2010 08:38:51 PM 1540 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? Camilla - 10/04/2010 08:24:33 AM 1731 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? lyringlas - 10/04/2010 05:08:42 PM 1826 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? Camilla - 12/04/2010 10:55:12 AM 1670 Views
He really wasn't a king in majority of the story though random thoughts - 12/04/2010 05:54:23 PM 1625 Views
I'm sure there are many, but one coming to mind is Prince Josua from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn Legolas - 09/04/2010 02:23:57 PM 1652 Views
Oh yeah I liked him a lot *NM* ironclad - 09/04/2010 04:09:59 PM 843 Views
Josua Lackhand is a great fantasy King! imlad - 09/04/2010 05:14:39 PM 1730 Views
Arutha was never King. *NM* Myrdhyn - 09/04/2010 07:18:30 PM 805 Views
I'm going to go with a tie... Myrdhyn - 09/04/2010 04:22:42 PM 1653 Views
Rohan was a whiny hypocritical bitch who failed at the only real test of rulership he ever faced. Cannoli - 10/04/2010 02:51:34 AM 1763 Views
That actually slipped my mind. I can't believe that. Myrdhyn - 16/04/2010 04:44:46 PM 1805 Views
Joffrey and the Stag! *NM* Kotagg - 09/04/2010 09:53:56 PM 803 Views
ROFL *NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 11:39:36 PM 772 Views
Artur Hawkwing Cannoli - 10/04/2010 03:34:02 AM 1878 Views
Alexander the Great? *NM* Ghavrel - 10/04/2010 05:08:25 AM 823 Views
AH conquered more, did better, & was not a huge d-bag. Alex would have commissioned that big statue *NM* Cannoli - 12/04/2010 03:00:39 PM 815 Views
And both managed to have their so-called "empires" crumble within a year of their death. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/04/2010 06:12:20 PM 818 Views
Which just reinforces how awesome AH was - no one else could do what he did Cannoli - 13/04/2010 11:50:54 AM 1752 Views
??? Sidious - 10/04/2010 10:30:13 AM 2289 Views
Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people Cannoli - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM 1713 Views
Simba *NM* BlackAdder - 10/04/2010 08:40:38 AM 896 Views
Manwe Sidious - 10/04/2010 10:31:54 AM 2161 Views
Bah. He's hardly a character. *NM* AgentOrange - 12/04/2010 01:07:29 AM 960 Views
Arutha, the Prince of Krondor AgentOrange - 12/04/2010 01:06:14 AM 1724 Views
Westley Comet Sedai - 13/04/2010 02:59:36 AM 1706 Views
Leto Atreides II random thoughts - 13/04/2010 05:07:29 AM 1611 Views
I'll agree with that! *NM* imlad - 13/04/2010 11:33:10 AM 810 Views
What's the name of the Lemur-thing that's the King in "the penguins of madagascar"? He gets my vote! *NM* Mjolner - 14/04/2010 04:46:42 AM 869 Views
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