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Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. lyringlas Send a noteboard - 09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM

That's all I meant by my statement. His writing reflects the times, but moreso in a very conservative community. I feel like he has as many influential women in his story as there are powerful women in classical history.Luthien, Galadriel, Eowyn to history's Cleopatra, Jeanne-Antoinette Poisson, Octavia Augusta, Elizabeth...I mean, the goddesses are almost nonexistent in his mythology. With how heavily influences pantheotic writing is by ancient Greece and Rome, you'd think he would have a couple of goddesses that stand out a bit; the best that can be said for most of the women (namely the goddesses, because we don't see many others) in the series is they serve as companions to powerful/influential men. Sad really.

Don't get me wrong though, I love Tolkien.


I think the most-mentioned Vala in the books has to be Elbereth/Varda, and Yavanna is important as well. They're not really active in battle of course, but Elbereth is mentioned as being the Vala most hated/feared by Melkor/Morgoth. And then there's Melian, Luthien's mother, who after all is a Maia on a level with Sauron. Melian is companion to Thingol, yeah, but it's obvious that she's both wiser and more powerful than he.


I agree with you about Varda and Yavanna, but I still don't feel as though they have very strong features in the books. Yes, they're feared, but it is the men doing most of everything. I love Melian, however, she willingly sacrificed so much to be with a petty elf. Though she hasd lived for thousands of years before Thingol's birth, she subordinates herself to him almosty immediately (I mean petty because of Thingol's actions with the Noldor in some of the wars, and how possessive/harsh he becomes; but I generally like Elu). I just cannot stand how there are no powerful women that do not have a male companion guarding over them, as if they are unable to function without one. Even the women that do phenomenal things: Luthien, Eowen, either end up deplorably unhappy, or married with kids to put them in their "rightful" places.
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The greatest King in Fantasy Dannymac - 09/04/2010 05:18:42 AM 2211 Views
King Arthur. Hands down. Ghavrel - 09/04/2010 06:40:15 AM 1607 Views
I would argue with you. Dannymac - 09/04/2010 06:54:53 AM 1557 Views
That's the point, though. Arthur's humanity is what makes him so admirable. Ghavrel - 09/04/2010 06:59:07 AM 1594 Views
I have to agree with Dannymac LadyLorraine - 09/04/2010 02:04:44 PM 1563 Views
But he's not in a modern fantasy novel. Ghavrel - 09/04/2010 07:37:14 PM 1622 Views
when I read the actual book... LadyLorraine - 10/04/2010 12:08:21 AM 1587 Views
"The actual character"? Which of the countless different ones? *NM* Legolas - 10/04/2010 12:21:00 AM 753 Views
i mean the actual character of Arthur in the actual book. LadyLorraine - 10/04/2010 12:51:44 AM 1677 Views
There isn't an "actual book." Le Morte d'Arthur is a relatively early compilation of legends. *NM* Ghavrel - 10/04/2010 03:09:40 AM 788 Views
Re: i mean the actual character of Arthur in the actual book. Camilla - 10/04/2010 08:17:12 AM 1561 Views
I'm going with the most likely historical version of King Arthur RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 06:45:26 PM 1649 Views
My money is still on Aragorn Camilla - 09/04/2010 12:47:43 PM 1689 Views
Aragorn is so awesome... LadyLorraine - 09/04/2010 02:05:42 PM 1538 Views
Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. Legolas - 09/04/2010 02:18:30 PM 1501 Views
Re: Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 02:49:45 PM 1574 Views
Hm nossy - 09/04/2010 03:23:53 PM 1639 Views
Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. Legolas - 09/04/2010 03:32:00 PM 1515 Views
Re: Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 03:45:37 PM 1786 Views
I can't agree about the goddesses. Legolas - 09/04/2010 04:34:15 PM 1631 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM 1517 Views
If Tacitus and Graves were accurate imlad - 09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM 1640 Views
Re: If Tacitus and Graves were accurate lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:26:43 PM 1547 Views
I rather liked her depiction in Rome. Legolas - 09/04/2010 05:34:37 PM 1615 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:45:06 PM 1685 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. Camilla - 10/04/2010 11:14:26 AM 1678 Views
I don't know if I'd call it bad, per se. Legolas - 10/04/2010 11:37:55 AM 1815 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM 1600 Views
Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. Legolas - 09/04/2010 05:31:42 PM 1570 Views
Re: Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:44:03 PM 1559 Views
Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 06:55:23 PM 1613 Views
Re: Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but... lyringlas - 09/04/2010 07:04:37 PM 1606 Views
thought of a better example: Arien the Maia of the Sun was single and far more powerful than Tilion RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 09:17:34 PM 1852 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. imlad - 09/04/2010 05:06:49 PM 1714 Views
That was my first assumption too, but evidently not. *NM* Legolas - 09/04/2010 05:22:39 PM 721 Views
I changed it to Livia Augusta Sheesh, you people-- a guy mistypes one time!! *NM* lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:29:03 PM 793 Views
I call bullshit Camilla - 09/04/2010 08:09:49 PM 1513 Views
Re: I call bullshit lyringlas - 09/04/2010 08:31:16 PM 1520 Views
Re: I call bullshit Camilla - 10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM 1616 Views
I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. lyringlas - 10/04/2010 05:12:07 PM 1615 Views
Re: I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. Camilla - 12/04/2010 11:00:23 AM 1491 Views
Exactly. Comet Sedai - 13/04/2010 03:08:46 AM 1622 Views
Re: Exactly. Camilla - 13/04/2010 08:54:01 AM 1702 Views
I was going to say something similar. nossy - 09/04/2010 03:21:45 PM 1540 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... Camilla - 09/04/2010 08:00:25 PM 1507 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... lyringlas - 09/04/2010 08:37:12 PM 1547 Views
He's good, but then he just doesn't have to face so many things. Legolas - 09/04/2010 02:22:04 PM 1840 Views
Doesn't have to face many things? Camilla - 09/04/2010 07:59:27 PM 1590 Views
As in, there are many important aspects of being king he doesn't have to face. Legolas - 09/04/2010 08:07:16 PM 1576 Views
well technically speaking he WAS the king when he did all those things. LadyLorraine - 10/04/2010 12:15:26 AM 1560 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? lyringlas - 09/04/2010 08:38:51 PM 1437 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? Camilla - 10/04/2010 08:24:33 AM 1562 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? lyringlas - 10/04/2010 05:08:42 PM 1692 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? Camilla - 12/04/2010 10:55:12 AM 1555 Views
He really wasn't a king in majority of the story though random thoughts - 12/04/2010 05:54:23 PM 1509 Views
I'm sure there are many, but one coming to mind is Prince Josua from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn Legolas - 09/04/2010 02:23:57 PM 1535 Views
Oh yeah I liked him a lot *NM* ironclad - 09/04/2010 04:09:59 PM 778 Views
Josua Lackhand is a great fantasy King! imlad - 09/04/2010 05:14:39 PM 1592 Views
Arutha was never King. *NM* Myrdhyn - 09/04/2010 07:18:30 PM 732 Views
I'm going to go with a tie... Myrdhyn - 09/04/2010 04:22:42 PM 1540 Views
Rohan was a whiny hypocritical bitch who failed at the only real test of rulership he ever faced. Cannoli - 10/04/2010 02:51:34 AM 1630 Views
That actually slipped my mind. I can't believe that. Myrdhyn - 16/04/2010 04:44:46 PM 1673 Views
Joffrey and the Stag! *NM* Kotagg - 09/04/2010 09:53:56 PM 746 Views
ROFL *NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 11:39:36 PM 712 Views
Artur Hawkwing Cannoli - 10/04/2010 03:34:02 AM 1705 Views
Alexander the Great? *NM* Ghavrel - 10/04/2010 05:08:25 AM 753 Views
AH conquered more, did better, & was not a huge d-bag. Alex would have commissioned that big statue *NM* Cannoli - 12/04/2010 03:00:39 PM 747 Views
And both managed to have their so-called "empires" crumble within a year of their death. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/04/2010 06:12:20 PM 752 Views
Which just reinforces how awesome AH was - no one else could do what he did Cannoli - 13/04/2010 11:50:54 AM 1623 Views
??? Sidious - 10/04/2010 10:30:13 AM 2125 Views
Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people Cannoli - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM 1544 Views
Simba *NM* BlackAdder - 10/04/2010 08:40:38 AM 800 Views
Manwe Sidious - 10/04/2010 10:31:54 AM 2021 Views
Bah. He's hardly a character. *NM* AgentOrange - 12/04/2010 01:07:29 AM 902 Views
Arutha, the Prince of Krondor AgentOrange - 12/04/2010 01:06:14 AM 1613 Views
Westley Comet Sedai - 13/04/2010 02:59:36 AM 1582 Views
Leto Atreides II random thoughts - 13/04/2010 05:07:29 AM 1497 Views
I'll agree with that! *NM* imlad - 13/04/2010 11:33:10 AM 744 Views
What's the name of the Lemur-thing that's the King in "the penguins of madagascar"? He gets my vote! *NM* Mjolner - 14/04/2010 04:46:42 AM 809 Views
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