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Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people Cannoli Send a noteboard - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM
Except that half of Hawkwing's greatness had to do with his supernatural power that bent reality to his will. Even if this is excusable, after his first wife died he became a tyrant and it was only through the intervention of his second wife that the world survived his wrath. Secondly, he became a puppet for one of the Forsaken, and died a madman.


His tyranny is only called such because it was out of character for HIM. By anyone else's standards it was business as usual, and the only evidence that he is the puppet of a Forsaken is the vainglorious boasting of nihilistic villain afflicted with three thousand years of exposure to the True Power, drawn from the same evil as the taint that drives saidin weilders mad. Ba'alzamon's bragging is not a remotely credible source. All things being equal, it is just as likely that HE was the one being bent to the other's will.

As for the issue of ta'veren, it is no different than the special protections other kings get with the divine right and so on. Given that all known ta'veren have been extraordinarily talented individuals it is as likely that his personal qualities resulted in his being picked out for greatness as the candidate who could best serve whatever purpose the Pattern had in mind (IMO, uniting humanity to forestall the Trolloc Wars 2), as that his achievements are based solely on some superpowered boost.

Actually, the ta'veren factor works even more to his credit, because the expansionist conqueror seldom makes for a good ruler. As we know from the books however, a ta'veren is driven along his course and must achieve what the Pattern wants him to or die. Hawkwing, according to his biography, was a good ruler who was content to stay at home and tend his nation, but was driven to conquest by necessity, implicitly by the mandate of the Pattern, and explicitly by the hostility of the White Tower.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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The greatest King in Fantasy - 09/04/2010 05:18:42 AM 1901 Views
King Arthur. Hands down. - 09/04/2010 06:40:15 AM 1281 Views
I would argue with you. - 09/04/2010 06:54:53 AM 1249 Views
That's the point, though. Arthur's humanity is what makes him so admirable. - 09/04/2010 06:59:07 AM 1283 Views
I have to agree with Dannymac - 09/04/2010 02:04:44 PM 1282 Views
But he's not in a modern fantasy novel. - 09/04/2010 07:37:14 PM 1300 Views
when I read the actual book... - 10/04/2010 12:08:21 AM 1303 Views
I'm going with the most likely historical version of King Arthur - 09/04/2010 06:45:26 PM 1331 Views
My money is still on Aragorn - 09/04/2010 12:47:43 PM 1395 Views
Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 02:05:42 PM 1259 Views
Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. - 09/04/2010 02:18:30 PM 1225 Views
Re: Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. - 09/04/2010 02:49:45 PM 1283 Views
Hm - 09/04/2010 03:23:53 PM 1337 Views
Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. - 09/04/2010 03:32:00 PM 1228 Views
Re: Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. - 09/04/2010 03:45:37 PM 1488 Views
I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 04:34:15 PM 1332 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM 1228 Views
If Tacitus and Graves were accurate - 09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM 1319 Views
Re: If Tacitus and Graves were accurate - 09/04/2010 05:26:43 PM 1236 Views
I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 09/04/2010 05:34:37 PM 1321 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 09/04/2010 05:45:06 PM 1388 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 10/04/2010 11:14:26 AM 1393 Views
I don't know if I'd call it bad, per se. - 10/04/2010 11:37:55 AM 1476 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM 1277 Views
Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. - 09/04/2010 05:31:42 PM 1243 Views
Re: Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. - 09/04/2010 05:44:03 PM 1288 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 05:06:49 PM 1392 Views
I call bullshit - 09/04/2010 08:09:49 PM 1229 Views
Re: I call bullshit - 09/04/2010 08:31:16 PM 1251 Views
Re: I call bullshit - 10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM 1335 Views
I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. - 10/04/2010 05:12:07 PM 1327 Views
Re: I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. - 12/04/2010 11:00:23 AM 1199 Views
Exactly. - 13/04/2010 03:08:46 AM 1309 Views
Re: Exactly. - 13/04/2010 08:54:01 AM 1372 Views
I was going to say something similar. - 09/04/2010 03:21:45 PM 1249 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 08:00:25 PM 1242 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 08:37:12 PM 1255 Views
He's good, but then he just doesn't have to face so many things. - 09/04/2010 02:22:04 PM 1529 Views
Doesn't have to face many things? - 09/04/2010 07:59:27 PM 1301 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 09/04/2010 08:38:51 PM 1141 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 10/04/2010 08:24:33 AM 1236 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 10/04/2010 05:08:42 PM 1400 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 12/04/2010 10:55:12 AM 1196 Views
He really wasn't a king in majority of the story though - 12/04/2010 05:54:23 PM 1194 Views
I'm sure there are many, but one coming to mind is Prince Josua from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn - 09/04/2010 02:23:57 PM 1247 Views
Oh yeah I liked him a lot *NM* - 09/04/2010 04:09:59 PM 594 Views
Josua Lackhand is a great fantasy King! - 09/04/2010 05:14:39 PM 1310 Views
Arutha was never King. *NM* - 09/04/2010 07:18:30 PM 562 Views
I'm going to go with a tie... - 09/04/2010 04:22:42 PM 1264 Views
Joffrey and the Stag! *NM* - 09/04/2010 09:53:56 PM 566 Views
ROFL *NM* - 09/04/2010 11:39:36 PM 542 Views
Artur Hawkwing - 10/04/2010 03:34:02 AM 1411 Views
??? - 10/04/2010 10:30:13 AM 1664 Views
Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM 1237 Views
Simba *NM* - 10/04/2010 08:40:38 AM 615 Views
Manwe - 10/04/2010 10:31:54 AM 1563 Views
Bah. He's hardly a character. *NM* - 12/04/2010 01:07:29 AM 692 Views
Arutha, the Prince of Krondor - 12/04/2010 01:06:14 AM 1308 Views
Westley - 13/04/2010 02:59:36 AM 1245 Views
Leto Atreides II - 13/04/2010 05:07:29 AM 1201 Views
I'll agree with that! *NM* - 13/04/2010 11:33:10 AM 566 Views

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