"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly.
Joel Send a noteboard - 15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM
As I say, I'm generally opposed to treason (also, I don't want the NSA coming after RAFO. )
I'm not going to get into a forty response thread here, but I find your aversion to subversion (I swear I didn't do it intentionally, but when I wrote that it was in Jesse Jackson's voice) somewhat curious. Famous subversives include: Thomas Paine, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, who were good questioners of authority, among the other less desirable characters in history. As with all things, there's good subversivism and bad subversivism, and equating being subversive to the established order with treason is a bit of a stretch. For instance, wanting to replace communism with capitalism, or vice versa, is not the same as seeking to overthrow a government or kill a sovereign leader. So leave out the "overthrow" part and keep in the "undermine", and that's mostly what I'm looking at. I don't want a Grand Inquisitor, I want a Thomas Paine or a Ghandi.
You know. The good bad guys.
I do know, indeed, I just want to be very careful I'm on the same page as people before I ally with them. Otherwise I might elect a trickle down Dem whose opponents call him "socialist" (it's only socialism if the government takes CONTROL of an industry; Obama mostly handed out free money to proven failures, but only those whose names end in "Inc" ).
We live in interesting times, when the "PATRIOT" Act has brought the Alien and Sedition Acts back from the dead and effectively repealed half the Bill of Rights in passing. It's critical to avoid the appearance of impropriety as well as the reality, lest all dissent and reform be branded treason (as the last administration routinely attempted). Obviously you can't let it paralyze you, but it's a good idea to make clear, precise and CONSTRUCTIVE arguments, make clear that you seek to benefit rather than harm the nation, so that when any REASONABLE third party looks in on the debate you're not the one coming off as the raving violent loon.
It may seem I'm arguing semantics, because I essentially am, but the difference between rhetoric and logic is that the former must take into account not just what one says, but what ones audience hears. That's how the Dem platform can be with the majority on so many issues for so long yet lose elections because the other side sells it better. "Reform" is a lot more palatable to most people than "subversion" yet the two aren't (technically) mutually exclusive. I'm only interested in subverting negative aspects of the establishment, and obviously I don't think that extends to the entire government. Personally, I think Progressives would be well served to publicly point out that "I love my country but fear my government" is a rather schizoid statement in a self governning country. Whether it's the Tea Party or the anarchists, I don't think the country well served by abolishing its government; a more accountable government is in all our interests. Sounds like you agree, but your original post could be read that way OR as a request for seditious sources. Leave it open like that and your opponents will cheerfully provide potential converts with a definition of their own (see: "Death Panels" ).
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Subversive Websites
13/11/2010 10:49:15 PM
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"Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established govt".
14/11/2010 01:44:14 AM
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Re: Gee, thanks dad! *NM*
14/11/2010 01:32:32 PM
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Well, I'm hoping I simply disagree with your diction rather than your motives.
14/11/2010 03:36:57 PM
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Re: No, you disagree with my motives.
15/11/2010 01:06:54 AM
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Jesus, who was executed for treason, is another relatively famous subversive. *NM*
15/11/2010 01:43:22 AM
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Re: I believe I've heard of him. Played centerfield for the Braves? *NM*
15/11/2010 03:38:17 AM
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The Founding Fathers of the US?
15/11/2010 10:18:32 AM
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"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God".
15/11/2010 01:15:33 PM
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I'm sure bin Laden completely agrees
15/11/2010 01:32:53 PM
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When you give me an example of Jefferson murdering women and children that analogy will work.
15/11/2010 01:49:04 PM
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yes because Jefferson was a PARAGON of virtue himself
15/11/2010 02:17:58 PM
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So you are being completely subjective here? It is wrong, unless it is for a cause you support? *NM*
15/11/2010 02:30:37 PM
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No, it's a question of precedence.
15/11/2010 04:13:04 PM
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government as a social contract is an opinion.
15/11/2010 07:47:57 PM
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Government as social contract is accepted everywhere political power doesn't come out of a gun.
15/11/2010 09:26:19 PM
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His analogy works very well, and you are still being subjective.
15/11/2010 08:23:25 PM
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The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 09:17:01 PM
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Re: The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 10:52:40 PM
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I don't believe that at all.
16/11/2010 12:08:26 AM
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I'm sorry, at what point did he say he wished to overturn social contract philosophy?
16/11/2010 01:47:49 AM
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Heaven forbid anyone put words in peoples mouths.
16/11/2010 04:38:20 PM
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uhm, he did not say every rebel is a traitor.
16/11/2010 04:49:23 PM
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Re: uhm, which "he" are we speaking of here?
16/11/2010 04:58:12 PM
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dude, so your issue is that you're afraid the CIA is going to show up on your door?
16/11/2010 05:01:38 PM
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My issue is not inviting trouble just to impotently shake my fist at omnipotent but faceless evil.
16/11/2010 10:31:54 PM
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They also don't get paid to waste their superiors time with silly conversations on silly websites *NM*
18/11/2010 10:56:36 AM
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The US had a guy tortured in Syria for a year because of silly converse on a silly website.
18/11/2010 04:03:14 PM
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No, its relevancy is difficult to grasp.
16/11/2010 07:19:11 AM
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Maybe I just have an unusual perspective.
16/11/2010 04:15:39 PM
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I didn't know they bombed a SCHOOL!!!
16/11/2010 04:31:24 PM
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Please. If there were any soldiers in the WTC on 911 it was coincidental.
16/11/2010 04:40:51 PM
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perhaps, but not all important targets are military targets.
16/11/2010 04:57:20 PM
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Not all important targets are LEGITIMATE targets either.
16/11/2010 05:06:11 PM
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I don't wish one, but I hate sidebars
16/11/2010 05:09:33 PM
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All about priorities; your call.
16/11/2010 10:33:53 PM
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No, NOW I know what's going on!
16/11/2010 04:36:04 PM
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Still doesn't work.
16/11/2010 04:50:58 PM
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Those last sentences are going way overboard.
16/11/2010 05:08:40 PM
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Terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible, but at least there's a LOGIC to it.
16/11/2010 05:21:15 PM
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First of all, your generalizations were misguided.
16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM
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Of course I disagree, but that's a different and older debate.
16/11/2010 11:10:23 PM
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mostly agree
16/11/2010 11:18:14 PM
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"Treason never prospers, what's the reason? If it prospers, none dare call it treason".
16/11/2010 11:30:55 PM
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I agree with the title - that seems to be a good quote to define when treason stops becoming treason
16/11/2010 11:39:37 PM
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. . . and now I'm thinking you're the one willfully misunderstanding.
16/11/2010 05:36:15 PM
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sorry
16/11/2010 11:24:44 PM
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Equally sorry if I've somehow done SOME Islamic TERRORISTS a disservice.
17/11/2010 12:44:34 AM
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"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly.
15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM
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Re: Non-sequitur, non-sequitur, CAPS LOCK, opinion, CAPS LOCK.
15/11/2010 10:45:41 PM
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Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point.
16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM
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I am curious.
16/11/2010 01:10:52 AM
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Argggh, ya got me!
16/11/2010 05:11:41 PM
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the dictionary has -nia and -iums.
16/11/2010 05:16:32 PM
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I prefer "millennia" but recall someone telling me that's not technically right.
16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM
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well, in American English, they're apparantly both "correct" *NM*
16/11/2010 06:13:40 PM
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It is right. It's the one thing that's easy in Latin and Greek declensions.
16/11/2010 06:33:12 PM
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Do only neuter words end in -um?
16/11/2010 06:57:39 PM
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IIRC, the number of "n"s was the issue.
17/11/2010 01:06:24 AM
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Oh yes, because you're very much in danger!!!
16/11/2010 01:51:58 AM
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The Secret Service once tracked down a teenager who wrote a death threat on a bill he passed.
16/11/2010 05:30:18 PM
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All my subversive websites are religious.
15/11/2010 02:26:42 AM
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Re: I'm certainly interested.
15/11/2010 03:37:11 AM
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Well, okay then.
15/11/2010 04:23:35 AM
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Always liked Sojourners, though I've not been by there in an Age.
15/11/2010 01:43:51 PM
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Some stuff I think is pretty neat:
15/11/2010 07:24:41 PM
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Re: William Faulkner would be unhappy with my thread.
16/11/2010 08:29:42 PM
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My work here is done.
16/11/2010 08:34:22 PM
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Re: Yes, it's fairly obvious that you need to respond. *NM*
16/11/2010 11:40:10 PM
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I often wish I didn't.
17/11/2010 01:49:33 AM
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