I didn't realise that's what we were talking about. I don't think it has anything to do with Snoop's analogy, or the matter of your subjectivity. You said treason was OK in that case because God gave the green light.
You have to either take that back, or simply say yes, you are being subjective, that treason is only OK if it's for a cause you support.
You have to either take that back, or simply say yes, you are being subjective, that treason is only OK if it's for a cause you support.
Not at all, but perhaps this is our disconnect: For Me, the Founding Fathers and most leading Enlightenment thinkers, there's a third option created by social contracts: A tyrannical government is itself treasonous, because it's entire legitimacy rests on the delegated authority it treats as irrelevant at best and an annoyance at worst. To restore a legitimate and just government ruling by and for the people is not treason, it's patriotism. What's perplexing is how any Brit, then or now, can accept that as given when speaking of Runnymede, the Cromwells Protectorate or the Glorious Revolution, then dismiss the American Revolution as treason. Someone may be subjectively changing the rules as and when it suits them, but it isn't me.
Turn it around; show me where the British crown was murdering women and children (in America, anyway) and you might have some basis for rationalizing doing the same in resistance to it.
Was I, or Snoop, or anyone trying to rationalize the murder of women and children? No. Is the Al-Qaida? Yes. And, not that it's necessary, but if they wanted to show us any examples the tyrannical power they resist murdering women and children, they would have no problem what so ever.
I think they'd be hard pressed to show us murdering women and children. We don't seek them out, though our bombs aren't perfect and the noble terrorists like to hide behind innocent noncombatants, but I chose my words carefully: "killing" is not "murder". snoop compared the American Revolution to Al Qaeda, and that analogy is deeply flawed. The Continental Army went after soldiers, not second graders.
As to my argument presupposing my conclusion, take it up with Jefferson, Locke, Rousseau et alia, because they routinely argued that government is no more than a social contract, and loses its legitimacy when it defaults on that contract.
Right. Uh. So you're agreeing that the theory of social contract is naive? See that's not what I got from your previous message. You're very confusing.
In a word, no. Opposing a tyrant isn't treason, supporting one is, at least in Western states, which have long accepted the social contract as valid. Hence Jeffersons quote, unless you think it means the man who coined the phrase "separation of church and state" was instead arguing that Gods position as head of state justified rebellion against George III.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 16/11/2010 at 04:24:41 PM
Subversive Websites
13/11/2010 10:49:15 PM
- 1198 Views
"Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established govt".
14/11/2010 01:44:14 AM
- 595 Views
Re: Gee, thanks dad! *NM*
14/11/2010 01:32:32 PM
- 447 Views
Well, I'm hoping I simply disagree with your diction rather than your motives.
14/11/2010 03:36:57 PM
- 658 Views
Re: No, you disagree with my motives.
15/11/2010 01:06:54 AM
- 666 Views
Jesus, who was executed for treason, is another relatively famous subversive. *NM*
15/11/2010 01:43:22 AM
- 371 Views
Re: I believe I've heard of him. Played centerfield for the Braves? *NM*
15/11/2010 03:38:17 AM
- 384 Views
The Founding Fathers of the US?
15/11/2010 10:18:32 AM
- 670 Views
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God".
15/11/2010 01:15:33 PM
- 710 Views
I'm sure bin Laden completely agrees
15/11/2010 01:32:53 PM
- 693 Views
When you give me an example of Jefferson murdering women and children that analogy will work.
15/11/2010 01:49:04 PM
- 611 Views
yes because Jefferson was a PARAGON of virtue himself
15/11/2010 02:17:58 PM
- 701 Views
So you are being completely subjective here? It is wrong, unless it is for a cause you support? *NM*
15/11/2010 02:30:37 PM
- 338 Views
No, it's a question of precedence.
15/11/2010 04:13:04 PM
- 579 Views
government as a social contract is an opinion.
15/11/2010 07:47:57 PM
- 631 Views
Government as social contract is accepted everywhere political power doesn't come out of a gun.
15/11/2010 09:26:19 PM
- 747 Views
His analogy works very well, and you are still being subjective.
15/11/2010 08:23:25 PM
- 809 Views
The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 09:17:01 PM
- 759 Views
Re: The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 10:52:40 PM
- 581 Views
I don't believe that at all.
16/11/2010 12:08:26 AM
- 489 Views
I'm sorry, at what point did he say he wished to overturn social contract philosophy?
16/11/2010 01:47:49 AM
- 570 Views
Heaven forbid anyone put words in peoples mouths.
16/11/2010 04:38:20 PM
- 781 Views
uhm, he did not say every rebel is a traitor.
16/11/2010 04:49:23 PM
- 527 Views
Re: uhm, which "he" are we speaking of here?
16/11/2010 04:58:12 PM
- 763 Views
dude, so your issue is that you're afraid the CIA is going to show up on your door?
16/11/2010 05:01:38 PM
- 712 Views
My issue is not inviting trouble just to impotently shake my fist at omnipotent but faceless evil.
16/11/2010 10:31:54 PM
- 5867 Views
They also don't get paid to waste their superiors time with silly conversations on silly websites *NM*
18/11/2010 10:56:36 AM
- 453 Views
The US had a guy tortured in Syria for a year because of silly converse on a silly website.
18/11/2010 04:03:14 PM
- 620 Views
No, its relevancy is difficult to grasp.
16/11/2010 07:19:11 AM
- 756 Views
Maybe I just have an unusual perspective.
16/11/2010 04:15:39 PM
- 725 Views
I didn't know they bombed a SCHOOL!!!
16/11/2010 04:31:24 PM
- 596 Views
Please. If there were any soldiers in the WTC on 911 it was coincidental.
16/11/2010 04:40:51 PM
- 637 Views
perhaps, but not all important targets are military targets.
16/11/2010 04:57:20 PM
- 774 Views
Not all important targets are LEGITIMATE targets either.
16/11/2010 05:06:11 PM
- 598 Views
I don't wish one, but I hate sidebars
16/11/2010 05:09:33 PM
- 644 Views
All about priorities; your call.
16/11/2010 10:33:53 PM
- 560 Views
No, NOW I know what's going on!
16/11/2010 04:36:04 PM
- 741 Views
Still doesn't work.
16/11/2010 04:50:58 PM
- 734 Views
Those last sentences are going way overboard.
16/11/2010 05:08:40 PM
- 599 Views
Terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible, but at least there's a LOGIC to it.
16/11/2010 05:21:15 PM
- 698 Views
First of all, your generalizations were misguided.
16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM
- 709 Views
Of course I disagree, but that's a different and older debate.
16/11/2010 11:10:23 PM
- 855 Views
mostly agree
16/11/2010 11:18:14 PM
- 566 Views
"Treason never prospers, what's the reason? If it prospers, none dare call it treason".
16/11/2010 11:30:55 PM
- 648 Views
I agree with the title - that seems to be a good quote to define when treason stops becoming treason
16/11/2010 11:39:37 PM
- 643 Views
. . . and now I'm thinking you're the one willfully misunderstanding.
16/11/2010 05:36:15 PM
- 635 Views
sorry
16/11/2010 11:24:44 PM
- 654 Views
Equally sorry if I've somehow done SOME Islamic TERRORISTS a disservice.
17/11/2010 12:44:34 AM
- 694 Views
"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly.
15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM
- 681 Views
Re: Non-sequitur, non-sequitur, CAPS LOCK, opinion, CAPS LOCK.
15/11/2010 10:45:41 PM
- 518 Views
Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point.
16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM
- 679 Views
I am curious.
16/11/2010 01:10:52 AM
- 538 Views
Argggh, ya got me!
16/11/2010 05:11:41 PM
- 535 Views
the dictionary has -nia and -iums.
16/11/2010 05:16:32 PM
- 638 Views
I prefer "millennia" but recall someone telling me that's not technically right.
16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM
- 565 Views
well, in American English, they're apparantly both "correct" *NM*
16/11/2010 06:13:40 PM
- 433 Views
It is right. It's the one thing that's easy in Latin and Greek declensions.
16/11/2010 06:33:12 PM
- 613 Views
Do only neuter words end in -um?
16/11/2010 06:57:39 PM
- 664 Views
IIRC, the number of "n"s was the issue.
17/11/2010 01:06:24 AM
- 661 Views
Oh yes, because you're very much in danger!!!
16/11/2010 01:51:58 AM
- 503 Views
The Secret Service once tracked down a teenager who wrote a death threat on a bill he passed.
16/11/2010 05:30:18 PM
- 641 Views
All my subversive websites are religious.
15/11/2010 02:26:42 AM
- 593 Views
Re: I'm certainly interested.
15/11/2010 03:37:11 AM
- 623 Views
Well, okay then.
15/11/2010 04:23:35 AM
- 690 Views
Always liked Sojourners, though I've not been by there in an Age.
15/11/2010 01:43:51 PM
- 643 Views
Some stuff I think is pretty neat:
15/11/2010 07:24:41 PM
- 711 Views
Re: William Faulkner would be unhappy with my thread.
16/11/2010 08:29:42 PM
- 604 Views
My work here is done.
16/11/2010 08:34:22 PM
- 561 Views
Re: Yes, it's fairly obvious that you need to respond. *NM*
16/11/2010 11:40:10 PM
- 411 Views
I often wish I didn't.
17/11/2010 01:49:33 AM
- 529 Views