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Re: As I mentioned numerous times. Joel Send a noteboard - 17/11/2010 01:34:29 AM
You do understand, don't you, that this PARTICULAR opinion by these PARTICULAR philosophers have been the basis for virtually all Western governments for centuries? What other legitimacy does your aspiring subversion have?

My subversion is not aimed at Western governments, which I no longer believe to be the primary drivers of policy. Furthermore, that particular sentence is incredibly Euro/Anglo-centric.

You may believe what you wish, but even to the great extent multinationals and corporations are in the drivers seat they're still forced to implement policy through and within the constraints of government. That's certainly changing, and I'm definitely alarmed I by the WTO et al. eroding popular sovereignty, but for the moment the REAL "special interests" (which aren't unions and unwed mothers) simply have more government ACCESS than the common man. Government still could and will rein them in if so inclined, and I'm not sure it can be otherwise, if a nation would still go to war just to enforce terms of a "free" trade treaty. Ultimately, social contracts hold because, failing all else, the unwashed masses can MAKE them hold. Of course, if one questions, let alone rejects, social contracts then subverting the ruling system is just treason; the only way it can be legitimate and patriotic is in terms of a social contract. Without a social contract the difference between "subversion" and "treason" really is semantic.

And, yes, the term "Western" is fairly Western oriented (much easier to say that than to try straddling the Atlantic with "Euro/Anglo-centric" and what do you have against Central and South America? :P) I wasn't aware you lived in the East; may you survive your subversion, because social contracts can be a hard sell in Beijing and Moscow, and even the most harmless subversion usually means a prison labor camp. Yes, I was speaking about Europe and the Americas, where the concept of social contracts and representative government developed, where I live and areas I know far better than the East, hence I feel far more qualified to speak on them. That's not to say I won't comment on the rest of the world, only that I tend to be less emphatic when I do and don't consider the comments relevant here regardless.

Perhaps you're looking forward to some sort of global state though, in which case you and the WTO have much in common. If so, I suspect only one of you has considered your recourse when a global government is corrupted and bought as inevitably as all the others. That's just speculation on my part though, so you're welcome to disregard it.
Again, you have a very traditional interpretation of the term subversion, which doesn't take into account modern philosophy, including feminist theory, post-structuralist theory, and varying forms of social structure theory. I'd continue with this, but I'm honestly not interested (I am still interested in interesting websites!). You do seem smart, but your traditionalism diminishes some of your better comments. I'd also suggest not jumping all over the place within your paragraphs, because it clutters them, and makes it appear you're not willing to confront a point directly.

I try to be thorough, and sometimes it's not immediately obvious how a given tangent is relevant, but it USUALLY is. People tend to forget that tangent lines must touch a circle at one point or they aren't tangents.

Again, I recognize and concede that "subversion" can have both the broad meaning you seem to be arguing as well as the more narrow one I keep discussing. My issue is not one of provincialism or conservatism, however, my issue is how the word is GENERALLY understood, because that's how your statements will be GENERALLY understood. If you want to join with others interested in reform, best to say something like that, because if you say, "subversion" instead you may end up in a room full of anarchists. As I've said, normally I'd be on your side linguistically, but I think the stakes are too high to be strictly academic here. If you insist on using that particular word, be VERY careful to explicitly state HOW you're using it. Especially if you're talking to anyone from any government agency (and I suspect you will be soon if you haven't yet.... )
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This message last edited by Joel on 17/11/2010 at 01:45:36 AM
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Subversive Websites - 13/11/2010 10:49:15 PM 1430 Views
"Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established govt". - 14/11/2010 01:44:14 AM 811 Views
Re: Gee, thanks dad! *NM* - 14/11/2010 01:32:32 PM 525 Views
Well, I'm hoping I simply disagree with your diction rather than your motives. - 14/11/2010 03:36:57 PM 870 Views
Re: No, you disagree with my motives. - 15/11/2010 01:06:54 AM 843 Views
The Founding Fathers of the US? - 15/11/2010 10:18:32 AM 883 Views
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God". - 15/11/2010 01:15:33 PM 919 Views
I'm sure bin Laden completely agrees - 15/11/2010 01:32:53 PM 891 Views
When you give me an example of Jefferson murdering women and children that analogy will work. - 15/11/2010 01:49:04 PM 851 Views
yes because Jefferson was a PARAGON of virtue himself - 15/11/2010 02:17:58 PM 941 Views
I wasn't aware I'd made that statement. - 15/11/2010 02:25:27 PM 763 Views
nvm, I was going to argue but I have decided not to *NM* - 15/11/2010 07:46:42 PM 477 Views
So you are being completely subjective here? It is wrong, unless it is for a cause you support? *NM* - 15/11/2010 02:30:37 PM 403 Views
No, it's a question of precedence. - 15/11/2010 04:13:04 PM 778 Views
His analogy works very well, and you are still being subjective. - 15/11/2010 08:23:25 PM 1016 Views
The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point. - 15/11/2010 09:17:01 PM 998 Views
Re: The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point. - 15/11/2010 10:52:40 PM 806 Views
I don't believe that at all. - 16/11/2010 12:08:26 AM 664 Views
Re: As I mentioned numerous times. - 16/11/2010 11:52:36 PM 912 Views
Re: As I mentioned numerous times. - 17/11/2010 01:34:29 AM 895 Views
No, its relevancy is difficult to grasp. - 16/11/2010 07:19:11 AM 1119 Views
Maybe I just have an unusual perspective. - 16/11/2010 04:15:39 PM 934 Views
I didn't know they bombed a SCHOOL!!! - 16/11/2010 04:31:24 PM 816 Views
Please. If there were any soldiers in the WTC on 911 it was coincidental. - 16/11/2010 04:40:51 PM 814 Views
perhaps, but not all important targets are military targets. - 16/11/2010 04:57:20 PM 994 Views
Not all important targets are LEGITIMATE targets either. - 16/11/2010 05:06:11 PM 817 Views
I don't wish one, but I hate sidebars - 16/11/2010 05:09:33 PM 871 Views
All about priorities; your call. - 16/11/2010 10:33:53 PM 787 Views
That's so many hours of my life I'll never get back. - 16/11/2010 10:41:55 PM 819 Views
This your first time on the CMB? - 16/11/2010 11:18:03 PM 838 Views
No, NOW I know what's going on! - 16/11/2010 04:36:04 PM 961 Views
Still doesn't work. - 16/11/2010 04:50:58 PM 990 Views
Those last sentences are going way overboard. - 16/11/2010 05:08:40 PM 825 Views
Terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible, but at least there's a LOGIC to it. - 16/11/2010 05:21:15 PM 911 Views
First of all, your generalizations were misguided. - 16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM 932 Views
Of course I disagree, but that's a different and older debate. - 16/11/2010 11:10:23 PM 1102 Views
I will try to be brief. Try. - 16/11/2010 11:28:28 PM 904 Views
Heh. - 16/11/2010 11:55:40 PM 795 Views
mostly agree - 16/11/2010 11:18:14 PM 769 Views
. . . and now I'm thinking you're the one willfully misunderstanding. - 16/11/2010 05:36:15 PM 833 Views
Not willful, at least. - 17/11/2010 12:29:42 AM 791 Views
sorry - 16/11/2010 11:24:44 PM 881 Views
Well, you know what I was going on about, if that helps? *NM* - 16/11/2010 11:25:18 PM 473 Views
"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly. - 15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM 892 Views
Re: Non-sequitur, non-sequitur, CAPS LOCK, opinion, CAPS LOCK. - 15/11/2010 10:45:41 PM 707 Views
Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point. - 16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM 917 Views
I am curious. - 16/11/2010 01:10:52 AM 756 Views
Argggh, ya got me! - 16/11/2010 05:11:41 PM 763 Views
the dictionary has -nia and -iums. - 16/11/2010 05:16:32 PM 860 Views
I prefer "millennia" but recall someone telling me that's not technically right. - 16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM 809 Views
well, in American English, they're apparantly both "correct" *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:13:40 PM 516 Views
In American English, almost anything is. - 17/11/2010 01:02:15 AM 879 Views
It is right. It's the one thing that's easy in Latin and Greek declensions. - 16/11/2010 06:33:12 PM 809 Views
You call then "neutral" over there? Interesting. *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:42:00 PM 507 Views
Neutral, neutrum, neuter, whatever. Details. *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:45:29 PM 455 Views
Do only neuter words end in -um? - 16/11/2010 06:57:39 PM 878 Views
Yes. I think so, anyway - been a good while since I had Latin. - 16/11/2010 07:12:09 PM 865 Views
Thanks. Maybe that's what I'm remembering. - 16/11/2010 07:17:05 PM 849 Views
IIRC, the number of "n"s was the issue. - 17/11/2010 01:06:24 AM 839 Views
Should definitely be two. *NM* - 17/11/2010 01:48:51 AM 419 Views
Ah, thanks. - 17/11/2010 02:08:08 AM 846 Views
Silly laptops.... - 16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM 940 Views
- 16/11/2010 05:35:22 PM 767 Views
I'm horrible about using "conjugate" as a blanket term. - 17/11/2010 01:09:34 AM 903 Views
I'm definitely missing the point. - 16/11/2010 06:58:17 AM 856 Views
Well, hopefully we've cleared things up now. *MN* - 16/11/2010 05:30:46 PM 865 Views
I don't know if it qualifies as subversive... - 14/11/2010 02:47:34 AM 970 Views
Re: That's not bad. - 14/11/2010 01:38:02 PM 870 Views
The Chap - 14/11/2010 01:58:27 PM 764 Views
Thanks. - 14/11/2010 03:04:49 PM 838 Views
All my subversive websites are religious. - 15/11/2010 02:26:42 AM 834 Views
Re: I'm certainly interested. - 15/11/2010 03:37:11 AM 847 Views
Well, okay then. - 15/11/2010 04:23:35 AM 912 Views
Some stuff I think is pretty neat: - 15/11/2010 07:24:41 PM 913 Views
Re: Noice, noice. - 15/11/2010 11:01:31 PM 854 Views
That first link is really good. - 15/11/2010 11:18:25 PM 955 Views
Re: Ha! - 16/11/2010 11:55:42 PM 719 Views
Re: Also, I like your poems. *NM* - 17/11/2010 01:02:27 AM 449 Views
Re: Dude. - 20/11/2010 02:14:38 AM 920 Views
you mean besides this one? *NM* - 15/11/2010 07:55:03 PM 355 Views
Re: I AM NOT SUBVERTING NEBHEAD!! - 15/11/2010 11:02:10 PM 839 Views
Re: William Faulkner would be unhappy with my thread. - 16/11/2010 08:29:42 PM 826 Views
My work here is done. - 16/11/2010 08:34:22 PM 784 Views
Re: Yes, it's fairly obvious that you need to respond. *NM* - 16/11/2010 11:40:10 PM 476 Views
I often wish I didn't. - 17/11/2010 01:49:33 AM 737 Views
I'm calling you out on this one. - 18/11/2010 12:06:17 AM 799 Views
It's not perfect, but it's the lesser of many evils, IMHO. - 18/11/2010 01:12:43 AM 860 Views
You people with your words. - 16/11/2010 08:34:17 PM 930 Views
. - 16/11/2010 08:54:22 PM 715 Views
Re: I still say we should start a band. - 20/11/2010 02:42:48 AM 884 Views
Re: Man, that attack on Cameron is brutal. *NM* - 20/11/2010 02:47:12 AM 435 Views
Re: Awesome. - 16/11/2010 11:38:29 PM 841 Views

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