You do understand, don't you, that this PARTICULAR opinion by these PARTICULAR philosophers have been the basis for virtually all Western governments for centuries? What other legitimacy does your aspiring subversion have?
My subversion is not aimed at Western governments, which I no longer believe to be the primary drivers of policy. Furthermore, that particular sentence is incredibly Euro/Anglo-centric.
You may believe what you wish, but even to the great extent multinationals and corporations are in the drivers seat they're still forced to implement policy through and within the constraints of government. That's certainly changing, and I'm definitely alarmed I by the WTO et al. eroding popular sovereignty, but for the moment the REAL "special interests" (which aren't unions and unwed mothers) simply have more government ACCESS than the common man. Government still could and will rein them in if so inclined, and I'm not sure it can be otherwise, if a nation would still go to war just to enforce terms of a "free" trade treaty. Ultimately, social contracts hold because, failing all else, the unwashed masses can MAKE them hold. Of course, if one questions, let alone rejects, social contracts then subverting the ruling system is just treason; the only way it can be legitimate and patriotic is in terms of a social contract. Without a social contract the difference between "subversion" and "treason" really is semantic.
And, yes, the term "Western" is fairly Western oriented (much easier to say that than to try straddling the Atlantic with "Euro/Anglo-centric" and what do you have against Central and South America? ) I wasn't aware you lived in the East; may you survive your subversion, because social contracts can be a hard sell in Beijing and Moscow, and even the most harmless subversion usually means a prison labor camp. Yes, I was speaking about Europe and the Americas, where the concept of social contracts and representative government developed, where I live and areas I know far better than the East, hence I feel far more qualified to speak on them. That's not to say I won't comment on the rest of the world, only that I tend to be less emphatic when I do and don't consider the comments relevant here regardless.
Perhaps you're looking forward to some sort of global state though, in which case you and the WTO have much in common. If so, I suspect only one of you has considered your recourse when a global government is corrupted and bought as inevitably as all the others. That's just speculation on my part though, so you're welcome to disregard it.
Again, you have a very traditional interpretation of the term subversion, which doesn't take into account modern philosophy, including feminist theory, post-structuralist theory, and varying forms of social structure theory. I'd continue with this, but I'm honestly not interested (I am still interested in interesting websites!). You do seem smart, but your traditionalism diminishes some of your better comments. I'd also suggest not jumping all over the place within your paragraphs, because it clutters them, and makes it appear you're not willing to confront a point directly.
I try to be thorough, and sometimes it's not immediately obvious how a given tangent is relevant, but it USUALLY is. People tend to forget that tangent lines must touch a circle at one point or they aren't tangents.
Again, I recognize and concede that "subversion" can have both the broad meaning you seem to be arguing as well as the more narrow one I keep discussing. My issue is not one of provincialism or conservatism, however, my issue is how the word is GENERALLY understood, because that's how your statements will be GENERALLY understood. If you want to join with others interested in reform, best to say something like that, because if you say, "subversion" instead you may end up in a room full of anarchists. As I've said, normally I'd be on your side linguistically, but I think the stakes are too high to be strictly academic here. If you insist on using that particular word, be VERY careful to explicitly state HOW you're using it. Especially if you're talking to anyone from any government agency (and I suspect you will be soon if you haven't yet.... )
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 17/11/2010 at 01:45:36 AM
Subversive Websites
13/11/2010 10:49:15 PM
- 1198 Views
"Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established govt".
14/11/2010 01:44:14 AM
- 595 Views
Re: Gee, thanks dad! *NM*
14/11/2010 01:32:32 PM
- 447 Views
Well, I'm hoping I simply disagree with your diction rather than your motives.
14/11/2010 03:36:57 PM
- 658 Views
Re: No, you disagree with my motives.
15/11/2010 01:06:54 AM
- 666 Views
Jesus, who was executed for treason, is another relatively famous subversive. *NM*
15/11/2010 01:43:22 AM
- 372 Views
Re: I believe I've heard of him. Played centerfield for the Braves? *NM*
15/11/2010 03:38:17 AM
- 385 Views
The Founding Fathers of the US?
15/11/2010 10:18:32 AM
- 671 Views
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God".
15/11/2010 01:15:33 PM
- 710 Views
I'm sure bin Laden completely agrees
15/11/2010 01:32:53 PM
- 693 Views
When you give me an example of Jefferson murdering women and children that analogy will work.
15/11/2010 01:49:04 PM
- 611 Views
yes because Jefferson was a PARAGON of virtue himself
15/11/2010 02:17:58 PM
- 701 Views
So you are being completely subjective here? It is wrong, unless it is for a cause you support? *NM*
15/11/2010 02:30:37 PM
- 338 Views
No, it's a question of precedence.
15/11/2010 04:13:04 PM
- 579 Views
government as a social contract is an opinion.
15/11/2010 07:47:57 PM
- 631 Views
Government as social contract is accepted everywhere political power doesn't come out of a gun.
15/11/2010 09:26:19 PM
- 747 Views
His analogy works very well, and you are still being subjective.
15/11/2010 08:23:25 PM
- 809 Views
The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 09:17:01 PM
- 759 Views
Re: The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 10:52:40 PM
- 581 Views
I don't believe that at all.
16/11/2010 12:08:26 AM
- 489 Views
I'm sorry, at what point did he say he wished to overturn social contract philosophy?
16/11/2010 01:47:49 AM
- 570 Views
Heaven forbid anyone put words in peoples mouths.
16/11/2010 04:38:20 PM
- 782 Views
uhm, he did not say every rebel is a traitor.
16/11/2010 04:49:23 PM
- 527 Views
Re: uhm, which "he" are we speaking of here?
16/11/2010 04:58:12 PM
- 763 Views
dude, so your issue is that you're afraid the CIA is going to show up on your door?
16/11/2010 05:01:38 PM
- 713 Views
My issue is not inviting trouble just to impotently shake my fist at omnipotent but faceless evil.
16/11/2010 10:31:54 PM
- 5867 Views
They also don't get paid to waste their superiors time with silly conversations on silly websites *NM*
18/11/2010 10:56:36 AM
- 453 Views
The US had a guy tortured in Syria for a year because of silly converse on a silly website.
18/11/2010 04:03:14 PM
- 620 Views
Re: As I mentioned numerous times.
16/11/2010 11:52:36 PM
- 667 Views
Re: As I mentioned numerous times.
17/11/2010 01:34:29 AM
- 656 Views
No, its relevancy is difficult to grasp.
16/11/2010 07:19:11 AM
- 756 Views
Maybe I just have an unusual perspective.
16/11/2010 04:15:39 PM
- 725 Views
I didn't know they bombed a SCHOOL!!!
16/11/2010 04:31:24 PM
- 596 Views
Please. If there were any soldiers in the WTC on 911 it was coincidental.
16/11/2010 04:40:51 PM
- 637 Views
perhaps, but not all important targets are military targets.
16/11/2010 04:57:20 PM
- 774 Views
Not all important targets are LEGITIMATE targets either.
16/11/2010 05:06:11 PM
- 598 Views
I don't wish one, but I hate sidebars
16/11/2010 05:09:33 PM
- 644 Views
All about priorities; your call.
16/11/2010 10:33:53 PM
- 560 Views
No, NOW I know what's going on!
16/11/2010 04:36:04 PM
- 741 Views
Still doesn't work.
16/11/2010 04:50:58 PM
- 734 Views
Those last sentences are going way overboard.
16/11/2010 05:08:40 PM
- 599 Views
Terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible, but at least there's a LOGIC to it.
16/11/2010 05:21:15 PM
- 698 Views
First of all, your generalizations were misguided.
16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM
- 709 Views
Of course I disagree, but that's a different and older debate.
16/11/2010 11:10:23 PM
- 855 Views
mostly agree
16/11/2010 11:18:14 PM
- 566 Views
"Treason never prospers, what's the reason? If it prospers, none dare call it treason".
16/11/2010 11:30:55 PM
- 648 Views
I agree with the title - that seems to be a good quote to define when treason stops becoming treason
16/11/2010 11:39:37 PM
- 643 Views
. . . and now I'm thinking you're the one willfully misunderstanding.
16/11/2010 05:36:15 PM
- 635 Views
sorry
16/11/2010 11:24:44 PM
- 654 Views
Equally sorry if I've somehow done SOME Islamic TERRORISTS a disservice.
17/11/2010 12:44:34 AM
- 694 Views
"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly.
15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM
- 681 Views
Re: Non-sequitur, non-sequitur, CAPS LOCK, opinion, CAPS LOCK.
15/11/2010 10:45:41 PM
- 518 Views
Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point.
16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM
- 679 Views
I am curious.
16/11/2010 01:10:52 AM
- 538 Views
Argggh, ya got me!
16/11/2010 05:11:41 PM
- 535 Views
the dictionary has -nia and -iums.
16/11/2010 05:16:32 PM
- 638 Views
I prefer "millennia" but recall someone telling me that's not technically right.
16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM
- 565 Views
well, in American English, they're apparantly both "correct" *NM*
16/11/2010 06:13:40 PM
- 433 Views
It is right. It's the one thing that's easy in Latin and Greek declensions.
16/11/2010 06:33:12 PM
- 613 Views
Do only neuter words end in -um?
16/11/2010 06:57:39 PM
- 664 Views
IIRC, the number of "n"s was the issue.
17/11/2010 01:06:24 AM
- 661 Views
Oh yes, because you're very much in danger!!!
16/11/2010 01:51:58 AM
- 503 Views
The Secret Service once tracked down a teenager who wrote a death threat on a bill he passed.
16/11/2010 05:30:18 PM
- 641 Views
All my subversive websites are religious.
15/11/2010 02:26:42 AM
- 594 Views
Re: I'm certainly interested.
15/11/2010 03:37:11 AM
- 623 Views
Well, okay then.
15/11/2010 04:23:35 AM
- 690 Views
Always liked Sojourners, though I've not been by there in an Age.
15/11/2010 01:43:51 PM
- 643 Views
Some stuff I think is pretty neat:
15/11/2010 07:24:41 PM
- 711 Views
Re: William Faulkner would be unhappy with my thread.
16/11/2010 08:29:42 PM
- 604 Views
My work here is done.
16/11/2010 08:34:22 PM
- 561 Views
Re: Yes, it's fairly obvious that you need to respond. *NM*
16/11/2010 11:40:10 PM
- 411 Views
I often wish I didn't.
17/11/2010 01:49:33 AM
- 529 Views