First of all, your generalizations were misguided.
Legolas Send a noteboard - 16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM
There are many groups that one might call Islamic terrorists, but if you're going to lump those with quite concrete goals and operating only in their own country, such as Hamas, together with the likes of al-Qaeda, it's going to become a mess.
I can't see how it's somehow "worse than terrorism" to continue one's terrorist activities when not satisfied by the offers made by the other side. It's just ordinary terrorism as far as I can see. And while most outsiders will agree that the Palestinians were fools for not closing the deal at Camp David - that was Arafat who was to blame there, though, not Hamas - there is, once again, no objective optimal solution that they morally had to accept. There is no simple straightforward solution in that conflict, it's always a matter of how well both sides can negotiate, and how much they have to grant if they want genuine peace. The Palestinians thought they could get more than they were offered at Camp David. I'd like to think people in Fatah know better now, but those in Hamas really don't seem to. Foolish, yes, but I'm not sure how it somehow makes them "worse than terrorists". It's not as if they said no because they "were so in love with killing".
Right, but that seems a somewhat abstract point with little practical effect - you can have groups of people deciding revolution is morally just, and acting accordingly, while the large majority of people disagrees. I mean, every revolution or rebellion is carried out by people who think they are doing the morally just thing.
Few Mid-East "terrorists" ever reach even that low moral ebb, however; again, we need look no further than the Oslo Agreement to see that, when offered a choice between a negotiated peace and continuing mass murder, most will choose the latter. Offer them what they say they want and they'll reject in favor of more murder. Seems pretty obvious what's going on there, and calling it "terrorism" is being generous, as apalling as that reality is. That's the difference between Fatah and Hamas, because, whatever his other faults and past misdeeds, by the end I think Arafat realized better than any the truth of what I'm saying. If peace, freedom, indepedence and a homeland are within your grasp and you throw it away because you're so in love with killing, you're as great a threat to your own people as to the enemy. It doesn't make anyone in the PLO a saint, by any means, and history has taught me to be very leery of deals with the devil, but I think you understand.
I can't see how it's somehow "worse than terrorism" to continue one's terrorist activities when not satisfied by the offers made by the other side. It's just ordinary terrorism as far as I can see. And while most outsiders will agree that the Palestinians were fools for not closing the deal at Camp David - that was Arafat who was to blame there, though, not Hamas - there is, once again, no objective optimal solution that they morally had to accept. There is no simple straightforward solution in that conflict, it's always a matter of how well both sides can negotiate, and how much they have to grant if they want genuine peace. The Palestinians thought they could get more than they were offered at Camp David. I'd like to think people in Fatah know better now, but those in Hamas really don't seem to. Foolish, yes, but I'm not sure how it somehow makes them "worse than terrorists". It's not as if they said no because they "were so in love with killing".
Oh, WHEN is certainly subjective, that's why each of the Founding Fathers struggled with it and many Americans, perhaps most, still do. But that it can happen, MUST happen for any rebellion to be patriotic rather than treason, is part and parcel with government as a social contract and (I thought) recognized as a truism in most Western states.
Right, but that seems a somewhat abstract point with little practical effect - you can have groups of people deciding revolution is morally just, and acting accordingly, while the large majority of people disagrees. I mean, every revolution or rebellion is carried out by people who think they are doing the morally just thing.
Subversive Websites
13/11/2010 10:49:15 PM
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"Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established govt".
14/11/2010 01:44:14 AM
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Re: Gee, thanks dad! *NM*
14/11/2010 01:32:32 PM
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Well, I'm hoping I simply disagree with your diction rather than your motives.
14/11/2010 03:36:57 PM
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Re: No, you disagree with my motives.
15/11/2010 01:06:54 AM
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Jesus, who was executed for treason, is another relatively famous subversive. *NM*
15/11/2010 01:43:22 AM
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Re: I believe I've heard of him. Played centerfield for the Braves? *NM*
15/11/2010 03:38:17 AM
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The Founding Fathers of the US?
15/11/2010 10:18:32 AM
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"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God".
15/11/2010 01:15:33 PM
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I'm sure bin Laden completely agrees
15/11/2010 01:32:53 PM
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When you give me an example of Jefferson murdering women and children that analogy will work.
15/11/2010 01:49:04 PM
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yes because Jefferson was a PARAGON of virtue himself
15/11/2010 02:17:58 PM
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So you are being completely subjective here? It is wrong, unless it is for a cause you support? *NM*
15/11/2010 02:30:37 PM
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No, it's a question of precedence.
15/11/2010 04:13:04 PM
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government as a social contract is an opinion.
15/11/2010 07:47:57 PM
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Government as social contract is accepted everywhere political power doesn't come out of a gun.
15/11/2010 09:26:19 PM
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His analogy works very well, and you are still being subjective.
15/11/2010 08:23:25 PM
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The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 09:17:01 PM
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Re: The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 10:52:40 PM
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I don't believe that at all.
16/11/2010 12:08:26 AM
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I'm sorry, at what point did he say he wished to overturn social contract philosophy?
16/11/2010 01:47:49 AM
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Heaven forbid anyone put words in peoples mouths.
16/11/2010 04:38:20 PM
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uhm, he did not say every rebel is a traitor.
16/11/2010 04:49:23 PM
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Re: uhm, which "he" are we speaking of here?
16/11/2010 04:58:12 PM
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dude, so your issue is that you're afraid the CIA is going to show up on your door?
16/11/2010 05:01:38 PM
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My issue is not inviting trouble just to impotently shake my fist at omnipotent but faceless evil.
16/11/2010 10:31:54 PM
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They also don't get paid to waste their superiors time with silly conversations on silly websites *NM*
18/11/2010 10:56:36 AM
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The US had a guy tortured in Syria for a year because of silly converse on a silly website.
18/11/2010 04:03:14 PM
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No, its relevancy is difficult to grasp.
16/11/2010 07:19:11 AM
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Maybe I just have an unusual perspective.
16/11/2010 04:15:39 PM
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I didn't know they bombed a SCHOOL!!!
16/11/2010 04:31:24 PM
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Please. If there were any soldiers in the WTC on 911 it was coincidental.
16/11/2010 04:40:51 PM
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perhaps, but not all important targets are military targets.
16/11/2010 04:57:20 PM
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Not all important targets are LEGITIMATE targets either.
16/11/2010 05:06:11 PM
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I don't wish one, but I hate sidebars
16/11/2010 05:09:33 PM
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All about priorities; your call.
16/11/2010 10:33:53 PM
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No, NOW I know what's going on!
16/11/2010 04:36:04 PM
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Still doesn't work.
16/11/2010 04:50:58 PM
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Those last sentences are going way overboard.
16/11/2010 05:08:40 PM
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Terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible, but at least there's a LOGIC to it.
16/11/2010 05:21:15 PM
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First of all, your generalizations were misguided.
16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM
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Of course I disagree, but that's a different and older debate.
16/11/2010 11:10:23 PM
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mostly agree
16/11/2010 11:18:14 PM
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"Treason never prospers, what's the reason? If it prospers, none dare call it treason".
16/11/2010 11:30:55 PM
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I agree with the title - that seems to be a good quote to define when treason stops becoming treason
16/11/2010 11:39:37 PM
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. . . and now I'm thinking you're the one willfully misunderstanding.
16/11/2010 05:36:15 PM
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sorry
16/11/2010 11:24:44 PM
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Equally sorry if I've somehow done SOME Islamic TERRORISTS a disservice.
17/11/2010 12:44:34 AM
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"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly.
15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM
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Re: Non-sequitur, non-sequitur, CAPS LOCK, opinion, CAPS LOCK.
15/11/2010 10:45:41 PM
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Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point.
16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM
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I am curious.
16/11/2010 01:10:52 AM
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Argggh, ya got me!
16/11/2010 05:11:41 PM
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the dictionary has -nia and -iums.
16/11/2010 05:16:32 PM
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I prefer "millennia" but recall someone telling me that's not technically right.
16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM
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well, in American English, they're apparantly both "correct" *NM*
16/11/2010 06:13:40 PM
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It is right. It's the one thing that's easy in Latin and Greek declensions.
16/11/2010 06:33:12 PM
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Do only neuter words end in -um?
16/11/2010 06:57:39 PM
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IIRC, the number of "n"s was the issue.
17/11/2010 01:06:24 AM
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Oh yes, because you're very much in danger!!!
16/11/2010 01:51:58 AM
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The Secret Service once tracked down a teenager who wrote a death threat on a bill he passed.
16/11/2010 05:30:18 PM
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All my subversive websites are religious.
15/11/2010 02:26:42 AM
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Re: I'm certainly interested.
15/11/2010 03:37:11 AM
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Well, okay then.
15/11/2010 04:23:35 AM
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Always liked Sojourners, though I've not been by there in an Age.
15/11/2010 01:43:51 PM
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Some stuff I think is pretty neat:
15/11/2010 07:24:41 PM
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Re: William Faulkner would be unhappy with my thread.
16/11/2010 08:29:42 PM
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My work here is done.
16/11/2010 08:34:22 PM
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Re: Yes, it's fairly obvious that you need to respond. *NM*
16/11/2010 11:40:10 PM
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I often wish I didn't.
17/11/2010 01:49:33 AM
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