On Israel and Palestine: first of all, I do think you mean Camp David and not Oslo, because Oslo didn't really go into much detail on the issues that matter, whereas Camp David did. And the Palestinians really could ask for more - and were under heavy pressure to do so. The right of return has been perhaps the most difficult issue - arguably, as there are so many difficult issues - preventing peace between Israel and the Palestinians, from the very first peace negotiations in 1949 onwards. Israel offered to let 100,000 Palestinians return at Camp David. Now, you and I may agree with them that they could not seriously have gone all that much higher - at least not orders of magnitude higher, as the Palestinians wanted. But since the Arabs and the Palestinians have kept insisting on that right of return for the past sixty years, for all of them, it IS understandable that the Palestinians wanted more, and hoped to get more. Foolish, but understandable. And I repeat my basic point: you may think the Palestinians turned down the best offer they were gonna get, and I may think that, but that doesn't make it an objective fact, and it doesn't mean their insistence to carry on fighting after that makes them somehow "worse than terrorists". They were not offered "their stated goals" by a long shot, and so the question of whether or not what they were offered was enough, is a subjective call.
Perhaps I am confusing agreements, if I dig too deeply into the Israel/Palestine debate I always end up wanting a barf bag, and generally see it as a pointless yet painful exercise. I'm not convinced anything short of Israels extermination would satisfy Palestinian (and other) Mid-East terror groups, probably because so many have so often stated their dedication to just that. That also wasn't on the table, but I don't think granting everything else while withholding that is a failed negotiation, it's a failure of even trying to negotiate with blood crazed fanatics. That's why Ireland finally has peace and Palestine still doesn't; the IRA, or enough of its leaders, were finally able to realize that there are more important things that hatred (like the welfare of the people, bringing us back to the social contract yet again).
I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but that remains a common topic of conversation in America, the country whose third President once looked forward to a revolution every four years. It probably always has been and probably always will be; "hunting clubs" aside, that's the reason the Second Amendment was written and remains part of the nations highest law. It's also why I want to be very careful of what I say and what I support, not just because of a pervasive and often paranoid intelligence community, but because the issue of whether rebellion is an urgent patriotic duty remains quite relevant to many Americans. I've no interest in a rebellion, and hence no interest in encouraging one, inadvertently or otherwise. We're still a long way from being unable to fix the system from within, IMHO, and I want to avoid any risk of implying otherwise.
Yeah, it really, really, really isn't like that elsewhere.
I figured. Just not convinced that's a good thing. Eternal vigilance and all that.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Subversive Websites
13/11/2010 10:49:15 PM
- 1198 Views
"Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established govt".
14/11/2010 01:44:14 AM
- 594 Views
Re: Gee, thanks dad! *NM*
14/11/2010 01:32:32 PM
- 446 Views
Well, I'm hoping I simply disagree with your diction rather than your motives.
14/11/2010 03:36:57 PM
- 658 Views
Re: No, you disagree with my motives.
15/11/2010 01:06:54 AM
- 665 Views
Jesus, who was executed for treason, is another relatively famous subversive. *NM*
15/11/2010 01:43:22 AM
- 371 Views
Re: I believe I've heard of him. Played centerfield for the Braves? *NM*
15/11/2010 03:38:17 AM
- 384 Views
The Founding Fathers of the US?
15/11/2010 10:18:32 AM
- 670 Views
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God".
15/11/2010 01:15:33 PM
- 709 Views
I'm sure bin Laden completely agrees
15/11/2010 01:32:53 PM
- 693 Views
When you give me an example of Jefferson murdering women and children that analogy will work.
15/11/2010 01:49:04 PM
- 611 Views
yes because Jefferson was a PARAGON of virtue himself
15/11/2010 02:17:58 PM
- 701 Views
So you are being completely subjective here? It is wrong, unless it is for a cause you support? *NM*
15/11/2010 02:30:37 PM
- 338 Views
No, it's a question of precedence.
15/11/2010 04:13:04 PM
- 578 Views
government as a social contract is an opinion.
15/11/2010 07:47:57 PM
- 631 Views
Government as social contract is accepted everywhere political power doesn't come out of a gun.
15/11/2010 09:26:19 PM
- 746 Views
His analogy works very well, and you are still being subjective.
15/11/2010 08:23:25 PM
- 809 Views
The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 09:17:01 PM
- 758 Views
Re: The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 10:52:40 PM
- 580 Views
I don't believe that at all.
16/11/2010 12:08:26 AM
- 489 Views
I'm sorry, at what point did he say he wished to overturn social contract philosophy?
16/11/2010 01:47:49 AM
- 570 Views
Heaven forbid anyone put words in peoples mouths.
16/11/2010 04:38:20 PM
- 781 Views
uhm, he did not say every rebel is a traitor.
16/11/2010 04:49:23 PM
- 526 Views
Re: uhm, which "he" are we speaking of here?
16/11/2010 04:58:12 PM
- 762 Views
dude, so your issue is that you're afraid the CIA is going to show up on your door?
16/11/2010 05:01:38 PM
- 712 Views
My issue is not inviting trouble just to impotently shake my fist at omnipotent but faceless evil.
16/11/2010 10:31:54 PM
- 5866 Views
They also don't get paid to waste their superiors time with silly conversations on silly websites *NM*
18/11/2010 10:56:36 AM
- 452 Views
The US had a guy tortured in Syria for a year because of silly converse on a silly website.
18/11/2010 04:03:14 PM
- 620 Views
No, its relevancy is difficult to grasp.
16/11/2010 07:19:11 AM
- 756 Views
Maybe I just have an unusual perspective.
16/11/2010 04:15:39 PM
- 724 Views
I didn't know they bombed a SCHOOL!!!
16/11/2010 04:31:24 PM
- 595 Views
Please. If there were any soldiers in the WTC on 911 it was coincidental.
16/11/2010 04:40:51 PM
- 637 Views
perhaps, but not all important targets are military targets.
16/11/2010 04:57:20 PM
- 774 Views
Not all important targets are LEGITIMATE targets either.
16/11/2010 05:06:11 PM
- 598 Views
I don't wish one, but I hate sidebars
16/11/2010 05:09:33 PM
- 643 Views
All about priorities; your call.
16/11/2010 10:33:53 PM
- 560 Views
No, NOW I know what's going on!
16/11/2010 04:36:04 PM
- 740 Views
Still doesn't work.
16/11/2010 04:50:58 PM
- 734 Views
Those last sentences are going way overboard.
16/11/2010 05:08:40 PM
- 598 Views
Terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible, but at least there's a LOGIC to it.
16/11/2010 05:21:15 PM
- 698 Views
First of all, your generalizations were misguided.
16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM
- 709 Views
Of course I disagree, but that's a different and older debate.
16/11/2010 11:10:23 PM
- 855 Views
I will try to be brief. Try.
16/11/2010 11:28:28 PM
- 656 Views
Heh.
16/11/2010 11:55:40 PM
- 613 Views
mostly agree
16/11/2010 11:18:14 PM
- 566 Views
"Treason never prospers, what's the reason? If it prospers, none dare call it treason".
16/11/2010 11:30:55 PM
- 648 Views
I agree with the title - that seems to be a good quote to define when treason stops becoming treason
16/11/2010 11:39:37 PM
- 643 Views
. . . and now I'm thinking you're the one willfully misunderstanding.
16/11/2010 05:36:15 PM
- 634 Views
sorry
16/11/2010 11:24:44 PM
- 654 Views
Equally sorry if I've somehow done SOME Islamic TERRORISTS a disservice.
17/11/2010 12:44:34 AM
- 693 Views
"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly.
15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM
- 680 Views
Re: Non-sequitur, non-sequitur, CAPS LOCK, opinion, CAPS LOCK.
15/11/2010 10:45:41 PM
- 518 Views
Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point.
16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM
- 678 Views
I am curious.
16/11/2010 01:10:52 AM
- 538 Views
Argggh, ya got me!
16/11/2010 05:11:41 PM
- 534 Views
the dictionary has -nia and -iums.
16/11/2010 05:16:32 PM
- 638 Views
I prefer "millennia" but recall someone telling me that's not technically right.
16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM
- 565 Views
well, in American English, they're apparantly both "correct" *NM*
16/11/2010 06:13:40 PM
- 432 Views
It is right. It's the one thing that's easy in Latin and Greek declensions.
16/11/2010 06:33:12 PM
- 612 Views
Do only neuter words end in -um?
16/11/2010 06:57:39 PM
- 664 Views
IIRC, the number of "n"s was the issue.
17/11/2010 01:06:24 AM
- 660 Views
Oh yes, because you're very much in danger!!!
16/11/2010 01:51:58 AM
- 503 Views
The Secret Service once tracked down a teenager who wrote a death threat on a bill he passed.
16/11/2010 05:30:18 PM
- 641 Views
All my subversive websites are religious.
15/11/2010 02:26:42 AM
- 593 Views
Re: I'm certainly interested.
15/11/2010 03:37:11 AM
- 622 Views
Well, okay then.
15/11/2010 04:23:35 AM
- 690 Views
Always liked Sojourners, though I've not been by there in an Age.
15/11/2010 01:43:51 PM
- 643 Views
Some stuff I think is pretty neat:
15/11/2010 07:24:41 PM
- 710 Views
Re: William Faulkner would be unhappy with my thread.
16/11/2010 08:29:42 PM
- 603 Views
My work here is done.
16/11/2010 08:34:22 PM
- 560 Views
Re: Yes, it's fairly obvious that you need to respond. *NM*
16/11/2010 11:40:10 PM
- 410 Views
I often wish I didn't.
17/11/2010 01:49:33 AM
- 529 Views