"Treason never prospers, what's the reason? If it prospers, none dare call it treason".
Joel Send a noteboard - 16/11/2010 11:30:55 PM
With regard to the rest, I think Snoop's comment on the American revolutionaries being traitors was largely tongue in cheek, and you have a point in saying he'd be inconsistent if he were serious. But the others also have a point in insisting that determining when a revolution becomes justified is a subjective matter. There isn't some set objective moment at which revolution becomes morally just.
They were traitors to the Crown - they did rebel against their king which does make them traitors. Of course they won which changes things a lot
But it was really just an illustration of the point that it is subjective, it isn't like saying murder it wrong but rather than saying murder is wrong unless you think they have a bad haircut or ugly shoes in which case it is noble and good.
Given when Mr. Pope lived, I don't think he was speaking of the Colonies. I could go on all day like this; probably the biggest reason the American colonists rebelled was because most of them came from Britain, a country where taxation without representation has been anathema since, what, the Thirteenth Century?
That's the thing though: They were rebels, but while all traitors are rebels, not all rebels are traitors. For all the crap I give ya'll about Charles I, Parliament WAS in the right on policy, had a point. Maybe not a point worth executing ones lawful sovereign, but then, Charles liked to paint them into corners, and I think we can agree that kicking the Stuarts out of Britain was one thing and KEEPING them out quite another. The Glorious Revolution is a lot harder to justify, however, especially to the extent to which it's been lauded from Day One. Deposing a monarch on the basis of what you SUSPECT his heir will do is pretty shady in my book.
The particulars of each rebellion are different, and thus sometimes they are justified, patriotic, and sometimes they are not. Tyrants and despots harm rather than help the nation, and removing them or extricating ones nation from their control is a public service, not treason. Determining whether a given rebellion falls into the category of patriotism or treason is often subjective, I'm not sure it can be otherwise, especially when it's a determination each citizen must make before deciding whose side to take. That the distinction exists isn't subjective at all, IMHO. It's not like saying murder is wrong except in certain cases; it's EXACTLY like saying murder is always wrong, but if someone breaks into your house and tries to kill you, killing THEM isn't murder, it's justifiable homicide.
I can't resist noting in passing that a memory that can't last eleven days is rather short indeed....
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 16/11/2010 at 11:35:54 PM
Subversive Websites
13/11/2010 10:49:15 PM
- 1198 Views
"Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established govt".
14/11/2010 01:44:14 AM
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Re: Gee, thanks dad! *NM*
14/11/2010 01:32:32 PM
- 446 Views
Well, I'm hoping I simply disagree with your diction rather than your motives.
14/11/2010 03:36:57 PM
- 657 Views
Re: No, you disagree with my motives.
15/11/2010 01:06:54 AM
- 665 Views
Jesus, who was executed for treason, is another relatively famous subversive. *NM*
15/11/2010 01:43:22 AM
- 371 Views
Re: I believe I've heard of him. Played centerfield for the Braves? *NM*
15/11/2010 03:38:17 AM
- 384 Views
The Founding Fathers of the US?
15/11/2010 10:18:32 AM
- 670 Views
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God".
15/11/2010 01:15:33 PM
- 709 Views
I'm sure bin Laden completely agrees
15/11/2010 01:32:53 PM
- 692 Views
When you give me an example of Jefferson murdering women and children that analogy will work.
15/11/2010 01:49:04 PM
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yes because Jefferson was a PARAGON of virtue himself
15/11/2010 02:17:58 PM
- 700 Views
So you are being completely subjective here? It is wrong, unless it is for a cause you support? *NM*
15/11/2010 02:30:37 PM
- 337 Views
No, it's a question of precedence.
15/11/2010 04:13:04 PM
- 578 Views
government as a social contract is an opinion.
15/11/2010 07:47:57 PM
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Government as social contract is accepted everywhere political power doesn't come out of a gun.
15/11/2010 09:26:19 PM
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His analogy works very well, and you are still being subjective.
15/11/2010 08:23:25 PM
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The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 09:17:01 PM
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Re: The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 10:52:40 PM
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I don't believe that at all.
16/11/2010 12:08:26 AM
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I'm sorry, at what point did he say he wished to overturn social contract philosophy?
16/11/2010 01:47:49 AM
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Heaven forbid anyone put words in peoples mouths.
16/11/2010 04:38:20 PM
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uhm, he did not say every rebel is a traitor.
16/11/2010 04:49:23 PM
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Re: uhm, which "he" are we speaking of here?
16/11/2010 04:58:12 PM
- 762 Views
dude, so your issue is that you're afraid the CIA is going to show up on your door?
16/11/2010 05:01:38 PM
- 712 Views
My issue is not inviting trouble just to impotently shake my fist at omnipotent but faceless evil.
16/11/2010 10:31:54 PM
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They also don't get paid to waste their superiors time with silly conversations on silly websites *NM*
18/11/2010 10:56:36 AM
- 452 Views
The US had a guy tortured in Syria for a year because of silly converse on a silly website.
18/11/2010 04:03:14 PM
- 620 Views
No, its relevancy is difficult to grasp.
16/11/2010 07:19:11 AM
- 755 Views
Maybe I just have an unusual perspective.
16/11/2010 04:15:39 PM
- 724 Views
I didn't know they bombed a SCHOOL!!!
16/11/2010 04:31:24 PM
- 595 Views
Please. If there were any soldiers in the WTC on 911 it was coincidental.
16/11/2010 04:40:51 PM
- 636 Views
perhaps, but not all important targets are military targets.
16/11/2010 04:57:20 PM
- 773 Views
Not all important targets are LEGITIMATE targets either.
16/11/2010 05:06:11 PM
- 597 Views
I don't wish one, but I hate sidebars
16/11/2010 05:09:33 PM
- 643 Views
All about priorities; your call.
16/11/2010 10:33:53 PM
- 560 Views
No, NOW I know what's going on!
16/11/2010 04:36:04 PM
- 740 Views
Still doesn't work.
16/11/2010 04:50:58 PM
- 733 Views
Those last sentences are going way overboard.
16/11/2010 05:08:40 PM
- 598 Views
Terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible, but at least there's a LOGIC to it.
16/11/2010 05:21:15 PM
- 697 Views
First of all, your generalizations were misguided.
16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM
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Of course I disagree, but that's a different and older debate.
16/11/2010 11:10:23 PM
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mostly agree
16/11/2010 11:18:14 PM
- 566 Views
"Treason never prospers, what's the reason? If it prospers, none dare call it treason".
16/11/2010 11:30:55 PM
- 648 Views
I agree with the title - that seems to be a good quote to define when treason stops becoming treason
16/11/2010 11:39:37 PM
- 642 Views
. . . and now I'm thinking you're the one willfully misunderstanding.
16/11/2010 05:36:15 PM
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sorry
16/11/2010 11:24:44 PM
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Equally sorry if I've somehow done SOME Islamic TERRORISTS a disservice.
17/11/2010 12:44:34 AM
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"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly.
15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM
- 680 Views
Re: Non-sequitur, non-sequitur, CAPS LOCK, opinion, CAPS LOCK.
15/11/2010 10:45:41 PM
- 517 Views
Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point.
16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM
- 678 Views
I am curious.
16/11/2010 01:10:52 AM
- 538 Views
Argggh, ya got me!
16/11/2010 05:11:41 PM
- 534 Views
the dictionary has -nia and -iums.
16/11/2010 05:16:32 PM
- 638 Views
I prefer "millennia" but recall someone telling me that's not technically right.
16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM
- 565 Views
well, in American English, they're apparantly both "correct" *NM*
16/11/2010 06:13:40 PM
- 432 Views
It is right. It's the one thing that's easy in Latin and Greek declensions.
16/11/2010 06:33:12 PM
- 612 Views
Do only neuter words end in -um?
16/11/2010 06:57:39 PM
- 663 Views
IIRC, the number of "n"s was the issue.
17/11/2010 01:06:24 AM
- 660 Views
Oh yes, because you're very much in danger!!!
16/11/2010 01:51:58 AM
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The Secret Service once tracked down a teenager who wrote a death threat on a bill he passed.
16/11/2010 05:30:18 PM
- 641 Views
All my subversive websites are religious.
15/11/2010 02:26:42 AM
- 593 Views
Re: I'm certainly interested.
15/11/2010 03:37:11 AM
- 622 Views
Well, okay then.
15/11/2010 04:23:35 AM
- 689 Views
Always liked Sojourners, though I've not been by there in an Age.
15/11/2010 01:43:51 PM
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Some stuff I think is pretty neat:
15/11/2010 07:24:41 PM
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Re: William Faulkner would be unhappy with my thread.
16/11/2010 08:29:42 PM
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My work here is done.
16/11/2010 08:34:22 PM
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Re: Yes, it's fairly obvious that you need to respond. *NM*
16/11/2010 11:40:10 PM
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I often wish I didn't.
17/11/2010 01:49:33 AM
- 528 Views