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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM
Perhaps so, but the evidence for any one explanation (or group of explanations) still seems inconclusive.


Again, that's because you have an overly-limited view of the evidence.

An analogy to other types of known normal matter doesn't really help the cause of exotic dark matter. You're essentially listing other explanations for missing mass that require no exotic dark matter.


No, because those particles either have too little mass or are not stable, which precludes them from being dark matter candidates. The point is that particles which don't interact electromagnetically are not unknown.

Ultimately, yes, and if dark matter and/or dark energy are invalid concepts then those ardently contending they're the only possible explanations and pursuing proof of same today will be much chagrined by tomorrows scientists exposing their errors. If that's how things develop, however, I'd prefer the process take decades rather than centuries, and the more inertia an erroneous theory has within the community the more evidence it will take to overcome it.


I think the suggestion that debunking a scientific hypothesis in the modern era could take centuries is ludicrous and without any support from recent history, taking into account the major progress in science since the scientific revolution.

That's fair enough, provided we don't inadvertently allow it become an excuse for never finding direct evidence. Otherwise there's no difference between dismissing the lack of direct evidence for dark matter and dismissing the lack of direct evidence for MACHOs; it's just a question of which theory unsupported by direct evidence one prefers.


As we're only in the beginning stages of direct detection experiments for dark matter, that is not yet a scenario which merits serious concern.

I don't think it's flimsy, as such, but I do think it inconclusive.

Theoretical estimates of normal dark matter could be off.

Less of it could lie in the immediate vicinity of lensed objects but more along the complete path between us and them.

The image itself could be distorted if the lensing mass is so close it strongly affects parts of the background but others little or none.

Those are just the most obvious solutions occurring to one layman, acknowleding that all may be untenable. Regardless, the basic principle that experiments and observation should seek new theories and test existing ones rather than simply to prove existing ones remains valid. An anomaly alerted us to a problem, but just because a solution that may be tenable was found doesn't mean we should just set out to prove that solution and cease bothering to look for one that fits the evidence better, particularly if one exists that both fits the evidence better AND is simpler.


An anomaly alerted us to the problem and many, many observations confirmed the problem.

Proposing solutions without having a full understanding of the situation and evidence is generally a futile exercise.
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Exciting video about the universe Camilla - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1484 Views
Cool, and true *NM* Stephen - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 543 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. Joel - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 1183 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. Dreaded Anomaly - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 1124 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 1042 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 1164 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 1107 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 1030 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 1017 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 1108 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 1202 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 1022 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 994 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 1047 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 992 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 1056 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Joel - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 1001 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 1258 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Joel - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 1031 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 1116 Views
Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately. Joel - 10/06/2011 12:09:04 AM 1366 Views
Re: Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:18 AM 1359 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 1075 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. Joel - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 1172 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 1126 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 1136 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:24 AM 1078 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 07/05/2011 02:05:02 AM 1278 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:29:36 PM 1036 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 14/05/2011 05:35:56 AM 1343 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:09:55 AM 922 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 19/05/2011 02:47:25 AM 1283 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:46:30 PM 1063 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 25/05/2011 12:20:10 AM 1361 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:22 AM 1275 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 10/06/2011 12:04:06 AM 1430 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:12 AM 1171 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) Tor - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 1514 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. Joel - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 1036 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 1056 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Joel - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 1178 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 1068 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1537 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 1017 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 1313 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 1135 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 14/05/2011 05:36:24 AM 1367 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:10:03 AM 1051 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 19/05/2011 04:33:06 AM 1329 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:59:38 PM 1050 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 24/05/2011 11:19:43 PM 1003 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 11:33:58 PM 970 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 25/05/2011 12:55:36 AM 1057 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:24 AM 1024 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 10/06/2011 12:09:13 AM 1195 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:05 AM 1186 Views
Might help if you clarified where your skepticism is at Isaac - 29/04/2011 02:32:07 AM 986 Views
Potentially either, or a combination of the two. Joel - 30/04/2011 02:36:50 PM 1051 Views
It's hard to discuss without knowing your objections a bit more clearly Isaac - 30/04/2011 04:58:03 PM 978 Views
My primary objection is that alternatives to dark matter seem to have been ruled out prematurely. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:29:14 AM 1216 Views
Well, they weren't, not really sure how else to put that Isaac - 10/05/2011 03:19:57 AM 1220 Views
Alright then, objection withdrawn (cautious skepticism intact). Joel - 14/05/2011 05:34:17 AM 1329 Views
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