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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM
Perhaps so, but the evidence for any one explanation (or group of explanations) still seems inconclusive.


Again, that's because you have an overly-limited view of the evidence.

An analogy to other types of known normal matter doesn't really help the cause of exotic dark matter. You're essentially listing other explanations for missing mass that require no exotic dark matter.


No, because those particles either have too little mass or are not stable, which precludes them from being dark matter candidates. The point is that particles which don't interact electromagnetically are not unknown.

Ultimately, yes, and if dark matter and/or dark energy are invalid concepts then those ardently contending they're the only possible explanations and pursuing proof of same today will be much chagrined by tomorrows scientists exposing their errors. If that's how things develop, however, I'd prefer the process take decades rather than centuries, and the more inertia an erroneous theory has within the community the more evidence it will take to overcome it.


I think the suggestion that debunking a scientific hypothesis in the modern era could take centuries is ludicrous and without any support from recent history, taking into account the major progress in science since the scientific revolution.

That's fair enough, provided we don't inadvertently allow it become an excuse for never finding direct evidence. Otherwise there's no difference between dismissing the lack of direct evidence for dark matter and dismissing the lack of direct evidence for MACHOs; it's just a question of which theory unsupported by direct evidence one prefers.


As we're only in the beginning stages of direct detection experiments for dark matter, that is not yet a scenario which merits serious concern.

I don't think it's flimsy, as such, but I do think it inconclusive.

Theoretical estimates of normal dark matter could be off.

Less of it could lie in the immediate vicinity of lensed objects but more along the complete path between us and them.

The image itself could be distorted if the lensing mass is so close it strongly affects parts of the background but others little or none.

Those are just the most obvious solutions occurring to one layman, acknowleding that all may be untenable. Regardless, the basic principle that experiments and observation should seek new theories and test existing ones rather than simply to prove existing ones remains valid. An anomaly alerted us to a problem, but just because a solution that may be tenable was found doesn't mean we should just set out to prove that solution and cease bothering to look for one that fits the evidence better, particularly if one exists that both fits the evidence better AND is simpler.


An anomaly alerted us to the problem and many, many observations confirmed the problem.

Proposing solutions without having a full understanding of the situation and evidence is generally a futile exercise.
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Exciting video about the universe Camilla - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1437 Views
Cool, and true *NM* Stephen - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 508 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. Joel - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 1145 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. Dreaded Anomaly - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 1088 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 1006 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 1115 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 1062 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 995 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 979 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 1073 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 1157 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 982 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 961 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 1011 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 951 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 1023 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Joel - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 966 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 1220 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Joel - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 998 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 1073 Views
Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately. Joel - 10/06/2011 12:09:04 AM 1324 Views
Re: Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:18 AM 1317 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 1014 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. Joel - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 1127 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 1092 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 1090 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:24 AM 1034 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 07/05/2011 02:05:02 AM 1240 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:29:36 PM 998 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 14/05/2011 05:35:56 AM 1299 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:09:55 AM 883 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 19/05/2011 02:47:25 AM 1236 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:46:30 PM 1021 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 25/05/2011 12:20:10 AM 1329 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:22 AM 1206 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 10/06/2011 12:04:06 AM 1386 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:12 AM 1131 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) Tor - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 1467 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. Joel - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 995 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 1018 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Joel - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 1136 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 979 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1489 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 971 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 1241 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 1098 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 14/05/2011 05:36:24 AM 1324 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:10:03 AM 1008 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 19/05/2011 04:33:06 AM 1290 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:59:38 PM 1007 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 24/05/2011 11:19:43 PM 962 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 11:33:58 PM 931 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 25/05/2011 12:55:36 AM 1021 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:24 AM 987 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 10/06/2011 12:09:13 AM 1155 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:05 AM 1144 Views
Might help if you clarified where your skepticism is at Isaac - 29/04/2011 02:32:07 AM 950 Views
Potentially either, or a combination of the two. Joel - 30/04/2011 02:36:50 PM 1018 Views
It's hard to discuss without knowing your objections a bit more clearly Isaac - 30/04/2011 04:58:03 PM 938 Views
My primary objection is that alternatives to dark matter seem to have been ruled out prematurely. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:29:14 AM 1152 Views
Well, they weren't, not really sure how else to put that Isaac - 10/05/2011 03:19:57 AM 1158 Views
Alright then, objection withdrawn (cautious skepticism intact). Joel - 14/05/2011 05:34:17 AM 1287 Views
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