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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM
Perhaps so, but the evidence for any one explanation (or group of explanations) still seems inconclusive.


Again, that's because you have an overly-limited view of the evidence.

An analogy to other types of known normal matter doesn't really help the cause of exotic dark matter. You're essentially listing other explanations for missing mass that require no exotic dark matter.


No, because those particles either have too little mass or are not stable, which precludes them from being dark matter candidates. The point is that particles which don't interact electromagnetically are not unknown.

Ultimately, yes, and if dark matter and/or dark energy are invalid concepts then those ardently contending they're the only possible explanations and pursuing proof of same today will be much chagrined by tomorrows scientists exposing their errors. If that's how things develop, however, I'd prefer the process take decades rather than centuries, and the more inertia an erroneous theory has within the community the more evidence it will take to overcome it.


I think the suggestion that debunking a scientific hypothesis in the modern era could take centuries is ludicrous and without any support from recent history, taking into account the major progress in science since the scientific revolution.

That's fair enough, provided we don't inadvertently allow it become an excuse for never finding direct evidence. Otherwise there's no difference between dismissing the lack of direct evidence for dark matter and dismissing the lack of direct evidence for MACHOs; it's just a question of which theory unsupported by direct evidence one prefers.


As we're only in the beginning stages of direct detection experiments for dark matter, that is not yet a scenario which merits serious concern.

I don't think it's flimsy, as such, but I do think it inconclusive.

Theoretical estimates of normal dark matter could be off.

Less of it could lie in the immediate vicinity of lensed objects but more along the complete path between us and them.

The image itself could be distorted if the lensing mass is so close it strongly affects parts of the background but others little or none.

Those are just the most obvious solutions occurring to one layman, acknowleding that all may be untenable. Regardless, the basic principle that experiments and observation should seek new theories and test existing ones rather than simply to prove existing ones remains valid. An anomaly alerted us to a problem, but just because a solution that may be tenable was found doesn't mean we should just set out to prove that solution and cease bothering to look for one that fits the evidence better, particularly if one exists that both fits the evidence better AND is simpler.


An anomaly alerted us to the problem and many, many observations confirmed the problem.

Proposing solutions without having a full understanding of the situation and evidence is generally a futile exercise.
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Exciting video about the universe Camilla - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1352 Views
Cool, and true *NM* Stephen - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 477 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. Joel - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 1071 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. Dreaded Anomaly - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 1007 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 921 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 1036 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 969 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 923 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 899 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 980 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 1075 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 905 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 873 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 944 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 876 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 952 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Joel - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 900 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 1120 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Joel - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 919 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 987 Views
Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately. Joel - 10/06/2011 12:09:04 AM 1246 Views
Re: Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:18 AM 1240 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 926 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. Joel - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 1055 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 1020 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 1008 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:24 AM 964 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 07/05/2011 02:05:02 AM 1156 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:29:36 PM 928 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 14/05/2011 05:35:56 AM 1219 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:09:55 AM 813 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 19/05/2011 02:47:25 AM 1170 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:46:30 PM 939 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 25/05/2011 12:20:10 AM 1254 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:22 AM 1088 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 10/06/2011 12:04:06 AM 1310 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:12 AM 1050 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) Tor - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 1378 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. Joel - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 916 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 935 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Joel - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 1069 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 880 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1405 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 891 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 1137 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 1017 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 14/05/2011 05:36:24 AM 1233 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:10:03 AM 942 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 19/05/2011 04:33:06 AM 1216 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:59:38 PM 939 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 24/05/2011 11:19:43 PM 897 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 11:33:58 PM 858 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 25/05/2011 12:55:36 AM 955 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:24 AM 904 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 10/06/2011 12:09:13 AM 1089 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:05 AM 1063 Views
Might help if you clarified where your skepticism is at Isaac - 29/04/2011 02:32:07 AM 880 Views
Potentially either, or a combination of the two. Joel - 30/04/2011 02:36:50 PM 950 Views
It's hard to discuss without knowing your objections a bit more clearly Isaac - 30/04/2011 04:58:03 PM 869 Views
My primary objection is that alternatives to dark matter seem to have been ruled out prematurely. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:29:14 AM 1057 Views
Well, they weren't, not really sure how else to put that Isaac - 10/05/2011 03:19:57 AM 1067 Views
Alright then, objection withdrawn (cautious skepticism intact). Joel - 14/05/2011 05:34:17 AM 1190 Views
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