I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
Tom Send a noteboard - 12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
I support gay rights. I support gay marriage. I think that everyone has a right to live as they choose as long as what they are doing does not constitute a direct trespass (as defined by law) against the persons or property of others.
I also happen to have a very personal and eccentric belief system that I consider to be nominally Christian but which others would doubtless not call Christian. As a result, I don't care if some Jewish shepherd stinking of sheep shit said this, that or the other. I also don't care if some self-loathing Jew named Paul decided to pontificate on every stupid subject he could think of.
However, as I understand it, the Presbyterians do claim to actually follow the entire Bible, and the Bible is very clear in both the Old Testament and New, that homosexual sex (at least male) is a direct "abomination". Let me then ask: can a Presbyterian homosexual minister have homosexual sex? How does the Presbyterian Church allow this without becoming a "halfway house to atheism", as the good Cardinal Newman once said?
I also happen to have a very personal and eccentric belief system that I consider to be nominally Christian but which others would doubtless not call Christian. As a result, I don't care if some Jewish shepherd stinking of sheep shit said this, that or the other. I also don't care if some self-loathing Jew named Paul decided to pontificate on every stupid subject he could think of.
However, as I understand it, the Presbyterians do claim to actually follow the entire Bible, and the Bible is very clear in both the Old Testament and New, that homosexual sex (at least male) is a direct "abomination". Let me then ask: can a Presbyterian homosexual minister have homosexual sex? How does the Presbyterian Church allow this without becoming a "halfway house to atheism", as the good Cardinal Newman once said?
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A.
- 11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM
1420 Views
*NM*
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification?
- 12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM
942 Views
Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests.
- 12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM
904 Views
Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood?
- 12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM
852 Views
Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much.
- 12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM
795 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned
- 12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM
802 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route.
- 14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM
761 Views
I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible.
- 14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM
834 Views
I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means.
- 14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM
1004 Views
As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
- 14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
813 Views
Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though).
- 12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM
887 Views
There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
- 12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
918 Views
Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all?
- 12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM
789 Views
Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
- 14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
894 Views
They did so, via negativa.
- 12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM
942 Views
Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here.
- 14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM
749 Views
Your church has a constitution?!
- 12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM
806 Views
My Church has a congress! 
*NM*
- 12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
395 Views
*NM*
- 12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
395 Views
Haha no way! *NM*
- 12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM
349 Views
Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos. 
*NM*
- 12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
394 Views
*NM*
- 12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
394 Views
I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
- 12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
998 Views
Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape.
- 12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM
826 Views
Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
- 12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
955 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis
- 12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM
874 Views
I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any.
- 12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM
841 Views
There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives.
- 12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM
918 Views
Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes.
- 12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM
894 Views
My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much.
- 13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM
891 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then?
- 13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM
847 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part.
- 13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM
740 Views
The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
- 13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
804 Views
You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you.
- 13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM
739 Views
Another example...
- 12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM
740 Views
If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct.
- 12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM
738 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats.
- 12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM
782 Views
We both know that isn't the case
- 12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM
884 Views
Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
- 12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM
845 Views
No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible
- 12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM
719 Views
So, everyone hates Judith, then?
- 12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM
789 Views
The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture.
- 12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM
757 Views
Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does?
- 14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM
1070 Views
The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint.
- 14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM
808 Views
That sounds appealing, and makes sense.
- 14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM
823 Views
Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them.
- 14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM
769 Views
Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
- 12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM
796 Views
The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least).
- 12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM
933 Views
I find this really weird, to be honest
- 13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM
802 Views
Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM*
- 13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM
332 Views
Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
- 13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
757 Views
There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius. 
- 14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
707 Views
- 14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
707 Views