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Re: Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet... Dannymac Send a noteboard - 15/05/2011 03:18:23 PM
I'll save you most of the jargon, but in short, the section of our constitution that forbade practicing homosexuals from being Ordained to Ministry of Word and Sacrament has been lifted. It doesn't force churches to ordain homosexuals, but it allows them to do so.


First, let me wish PCUSA well, I hope this decision - which I am dubious on - does not rupture your fellowship.

If I understand this correctly, as a whole the ban is lifted but churches may still reject people on those grounds, which appeals to my localized control of things even if I can't see a scriptural justification for this. But can you, if possible, list a few other things which are still banned, or which also are, like this, left to the individual churches?

And somewhat separately, is homosexuality still being considered a sin, also separately, I gather gay marriage was also on the table, can you address that in this context?

This is one of those things that I was never quite sure would happen in my lifetime. I am extremely proud of my denomination right now. It won't be easy, and a lot of folks are likely to leave. But better folks leaving by choice then being forced out by polity, in my opinion.


Having been raised Unitarian - at least until I was old enough to look up the term 'atheist' - I can tell you that the only thing worse than a religion with doctrinal disputes is one without any, either because they permit none or can't have any. I guess the silver lining is knowing that everyone involved cares enough about the Word of God to argue about it or even break fellowship.


In order to be ordained in the Presbyterian Church, a potential Pastor they must first be a member in good standing with an individual congregation that is willing to sponsor them. Then they go through a rigorous process over the course of years, studying the scriptures, reading the theologians that went before, and undergoing independent psychological examination to determine their appropriateness for ministry. There are five tests, our ordination exams, that test competency in Exegesis (Scriptural work) Polity (Church government) Worship and Sacraments, Theology, and basic Biblical Competency. Then they are examined by their Presbytery (our most powerful level of government, comparable to counties in American Government) and finally must be called by an individual congregation.

It's not an easy process, and people are individually examined, not placed into a rubric with so many "yes" or "no" checks required. The section of our constitution that was removed was an oddity in that it created such a rubric, even if it was one with only two questions, that being of chastity in singleness and fidelity in marriage.

Those standards have not gone away, but have gone with all the others, to the discretion of the churches, presbyteries, and pastors in each individual call. Some churches may still feel that it is inappropriate to call a practicing homosexual to be their pastor, and so they won't.
Eschew Verbosity
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Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A. Dannymac - 11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM 1438 Views
*NM* Sareitha Sedai - 11/05/2011 06:10:26 PM 321 Views
I am happy to see this. *NM* Ghavrel - 11/05/2011 07:22:59 PM 367 Views
Homosexuals must die! Dark Knight - 11/05/2011 08:25:25 PM 1102 Views
I agree! This sort of behavior can NOT be excused!!! LadyLorraine - 11/05/2011 10:38:16 PM 746 Views
Yay!!. Amys - 11/05/2011 10:38:51 PM 995 Views
Glad to hear it. *NM* Legolas - 11/05/2011 10:46:39 PM 417 Views
Well done. *NM* Camilla - 11/05/2011 11:07:22 PM 364 Views
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification? Joel - 12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM 988 Views
Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests. Ghavrel - 12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM 921 Views
Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood? Tom - 12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM 861 Views
Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much. Ghavrel - 12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM 810 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned Tom - 12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM 819 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route. Ghavrel - 14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM 776 Views
I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible. Tom - 14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM 848 Views
I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means. Ghavrel - 14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM 1019 Views
As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy. Tom - 14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM 829 Views
Wow. Joel - 20/05/2011 10:15:21 AM 851 Views
Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though). Joel - 12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM 903 Views
It's more a question of interpretational standards. Tom - 12/05/2011 02:29:43 PM 788 Views
Agreed. Joel - 14/05/2011 01:17:45 AM 864 Views
There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible. Joel - 12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM 935 Views
Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all? Dannymac - 12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM 804 Views
Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored. Joel - 14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM 912 Views
They did so, via negativa. Dannymac - 12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM 955 Views
Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here. Joel - 14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM 763 Views
Your church has a constitution?! Dragonsoul - 12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM 827 Views
My Church has a congress! *NM* Ghavrel - 12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM 405 Views
Haha no way! *NM* Dragonsoul - 12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM 356 Views
Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM 398 Views
We have a General Assembly and a Moderator. Dannymac - 12/05/2011 04:18:34 PM 915 Views
I had no idea the US was based on that system. Dragonsoul - 12/05/2011 06:22:58 PM 754 Views
It is pretty common practice random thoughts - 12/05/2011 06:54:02 PM 788 Views
Oh I'm sure it is with newer churches. Dragonsoul - 12/05/2011 10:49:11 PM 845 Views
I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible. Tom - 12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM 1014 Views
Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape. Dannymac - 12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM 844 Views
Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit. Tom - 12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM 975 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis Dannymac - 12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM 891 Views
I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any. Tom - 12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM 859 Views
There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives. Legolas - 12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM 935 Views
Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes. Tom - 12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM 908 Views
My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much. Legolas - 13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM 907 Views
I strongly and vehemently disagree with your position. Tom - 13/05/2011 10:21:10 PM 777 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then? Dannymac - 13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM 862 Views
Re: Oh, is that how we're playing this, then? Jacob - 13/05/2011 07:02:35 PM 835 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part. Tom - 13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM 758 Views
Danny will correct me if I'm wrong, but... Legolas - 13/05/2011 09:55:14 PM 966 Views
Danny persistently refuses to say that Tom - 13/05/2011 10:13:55 PM 891 Views
And with respect to your textual point, once again you're wrong Tom - 12/05/2011 07:44:10 PM 982 Views
The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying. Jacob - 13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM 825 Views
You're a fucking moron. *NM* Dan - 15/05/2011 11:11:08 PM 389 Views
You make a very important but too often overlooked point. Joel - 14/05/2011 01:54:40 AM 923 Views
??? the bible was harsher on homosexulaity than on rape random thoughts - 12/05/2011 06:56:43 PM 820 Views
Read Judges. Dannymac - 12/05/2011 07:17:29 PM 822 Views
You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you. TaskmasterJack - 13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM 756 Views
And you add in some New Age music and a little ankh as well *NM* Tom - 14/05/2011 02:35:27 AM 369 Views
Another example... Bramhodoulos - 12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM 755 Views
That's what people said about churches opposing slavery. Dannymac - 12/05/2011 04:06:26 PM 814 Views
I rest my case *NM* Bramhodoulos - 12/05/2011 04:48:32 PM 354 Views
That is a false dichotomy and we both know it. Joel - 14/05/2011 02:07:19 AM 810 Views
If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct. Tom - 12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM 757 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats. Dannymac - 12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM 797 Views
We both know that isn't the case Tom - 12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM 900 Views
Whatever your issue is, get over it. Dannymac - 13/05/2011 06:17:26 PM 773 Views
You'd be a lot more effective... Jacob - 13/05/2011 06:45:31 PM 877 Views
You haven't adequately expressed your theology Tom - 13/05/2011 07:28:54 PM 870 Views
Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels beetnemesis - 12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM 862 Views
No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible Tom - 12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM 733 Views
So, everyone hates Judith, then? beetnemesis - 12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM 811 Views
The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture. Tom - 12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM 772 Views
Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does? Joel - 14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM 1085 Views
The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint. Tom - 14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM 824 Views
That sounds appealing, and makes sense. Joel - 14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM 841 Views
Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them. Tom - 14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM 787 Views
Oh, but they know that; in many cases, they exult in it. Joel - 14/05/2011 06:06:01 AM 791 Views
Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels Isaac - 12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM 810 Views
The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least). Ghavrel - 12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM 950 Views
I find this really weird, to be honest beetnemesis - 13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM 818 Views
Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM 339 Views
Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity Tom - 13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM 774 Views
There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius. Joel - 14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM 734 Views
Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet... Isaac - 13/05/2011 07:14:01 PM 773 Views
Re: Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet... Dannymac - 15/05/2011 03:18:23 PM 1179 Views
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