I assumed he was referring to me when talked about picking fights with people
random thoughts Send a noteboard - 27/07/2011 05:53:43 PM
If he wasn't then I retract my statement, tempers have been flared over this.
I have no idea what trz believes or doesn't believe. I have stated that he didn't really fit in the American right but I would never argue that he is a leftist.
I think there is a problem with using the same labels to describe crazed extremist as we use for main stream political groups. There has been to much effort by both sides to try and define the other like that. I doubt you have much more in common with the unabomber than I do with this sicko despite the fact that he picked some thing to be crazy about that more closely align with thinking from the left. There are valid reason to be concerned that corporations have to much power in our society and saying that in no way makes one responsible for his actions.
I think in general they should avoid using political labels for lone mad dogs no matter what. With groups it gets a little harder. Then you have to ask how much the main stream group defends or rejects the group. Most people would call the KKK a far right group but main stream conservatives in no way support them and are just as eager to openly condemn them as the left is. If you looked their issues I assume I my positions would closer to to their views than yours would be on a very few minor points but on 98% we would agree and the rest I would be much closer to your position than theirs. So with the Klan I object to using the label far right because it implies that I have similar views only less extreme when I think I have nothing in common with those people and despise both their methods and their values. The tea party is a different story. Even though I disagree with them on a lot points I have no problem acknowledging that I am in the same political spectrum as they are. I wish they would calm down but when push comes to shove I agree with them a some important points.
I think trying marginalize the other side in this way is something both sides do but I do think the left is more effective at it. I also believe the media either intentionally or simply because so many of them are liberal and just think that way promote the idea that right is dangerous by being much more likely to label someone as far right than they are to label someone far left and by pointing out the extremes of the right while ignoring those on the left. Conservative have the right to object to this and to call the media out for doing it.
I also think that issues like this matter. Association plays a larger role in are thinking than we like to admit and the names we call a thing does affect how we think about. I believe the left is more aware of that the right is and that is why they have pushed for all of the PC name changing over the years and jungles are now rain forest and swamps are wet lands.
The long and short of it though that regardless of how political scientist choose to labels beliefs systems I personally object to any system that implies a similarity to my beliefs with a man whose hatred led him to kill children. I not only oppose his actions but his motives as well.
I do not agree with that at all, I don't think you do and I think trz knows that half the things he has said in here are not accurate. That's what seems like trolling to us, but maybe I just don't read him right?
I have no idea what trz believes or doesn't believe. I have stated that he didn't really fit in the American right but I would never argue that he is a leftist.
I think it would be best if we could all (not just pointing at you, simply replying to you) talk about the real issues rather than attacking each other. What happened in Norway makes me want to vomit, but I actually think this thread is a good place for a discussion about what the labels really mean.
I think there is a problem with using the same labels to describe crazed extremist as we use for main stream political groups. There has been to much effort by both sides to try and define the other like that. I doubt you have much more in common with the unabomber than I do with this sicko despite the fact that he picked some thing to be crazy about that more closely align with thinking from the left. There are valid reason to be concerned that corporations have to much power in our society and saying that in no way makes one responsible for his actions.
I think in general they should avoid using political labels for lone mad dogs no matter what. With groups it gets a little harder. Then you have to ask how much the main stream group defends or rejects the group. Most people would call the KKK a far right group but main stream conservatives in no way support them and are just as eager to openly condemn them as the left is. If you looked their issues I assume I my positions would closer to to their views than yours would be on a very few minor points but on 98% we would agree and the rest I would be much closer to your position than theirs. So with the Klan I object to using the label far right because it implies that I have similar views only less extreme when I think I have nothing in common with those people and despise both their methods and their values. The tea party is a different story. Even though I disagree with them on a lot points I have no problem acknowledging that I am in the same political spectrum as they are. I wish they would calm down but when push comes to shove I agree with them a some important points.
I think trying marginalize the other side in this way is something both sides do but I do think the left is more effective at it. I also believe the media either intentionally or simply because so many of them are liberal and just think that way promote the idea that right is dangerous by being much more likely to label someone as far right than they are to label someone far left and by pointing out the extremes of the right while ignoring those on the left. Conservative have the right to object to this and to call the media out for doing it.
I also think that issues like this matter. Association plays a larger role in are thinking than we like to admit and the names we call a thing does affect how we think about. I believe the left is more aware of that the right is and that is why they have pushed for all of the PC name changing over the years and jungles are now rain forest and swamps are wet lands.
The long and short of it though that regardless of how political scientist choose to labels beliefs systems I personally object to any system that implies a similarity to my beliefs with a man whose hatred led him to kill children. I not only oppose his actions but his motives as well.
Fox Condemns (Calling) Norways Right Wing Terrorist (a Right Wing Terrorist).
26/07/2011 02:31:25 AM
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Norway shooter = ultra left-wing anarchist *NM*
26/07/2011 04:11:58 AM
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How exactly is anarchism ultra left-wing? *NM*
26/07/2011 05:48:15 AM
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That part actually makes sense; both are anti-authoritarian, anti-establishment and anti-statist.
26/07/2011 08:03:19 AM
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Re: Norway shooter = Christian fundamentalist
26/07/2011 05:58:54 AM
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I'm not.
26/07/2011 08:14:33 AM
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funny how we always keep hearing that Europe left isn't Ameircan left
26/07/2011 01:18:57 PM
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No one called him "American right"
26/07/2011 01:59:07 PM
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so why is the left complaining that the American right won't claim him? *NM*
26/07/2011 02:06:44 PM
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They don't have to claim him.
26/07/2011 02:08:37 PM
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Or the left could not use the massacre for political advantage and just call him mad man
26/07/2011 03:29:20 PM
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I neither care nor am responsible for US media
26/07/2011 03:57:08 PM
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this is an article about the US media or hadn't you noticed?
26/07/2011 04:27:58 PM
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Yes but I didn't reply to the main article, but to Trzaska being ignorant
26/07/2011 04:36:52 PM
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Just to be clear
26/07/2011 04:42:04 PM
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just be clear I am not defending the argument that he a leftist
26/07/2011 05:30:27 PM
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People seem to forget that there are several different kinds of Left & Right wing views.
26/07/2011 06:23:37 PM
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sorry that sounds all nice and reasonable but it doesn't really represent reality
26/07/2011 06:41:10 PM
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I get that it is an American TV station making this nonsensical statement,
26/07/2011 06:50:36 PM
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See, the thing with an extremist, is that he doesn't have all that much in common with
26/07/2011 03:59:05 PM
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A right OR left wing extremist is just that; that's why your mouthpieces are so defensive.
26/07/2011 10:40:46 PM
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I am not surprised that the left has wasted no time in local for poltical gain from tragedy
26/07/2011 01:13:13 PM
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He murders kids because they're liberal, you spit on their graves: You both belong in an asylum.
26/07/2011 07:54:08 AM
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Aaaaaaand you are back on my ignore list. Thanks for confirming my original instincts were right. *NM*
26/07/2011 11:18:25 AM
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He says (through his lawyer) ...
26/07/2011 01:54:51 PM
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funny how when it is right wing wacko we always see that title applied
26/07/2011 02:09:10 PM
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I have no idea what you're talking about.
26/07/2011 03:55:13 PM
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Ted Kaczynski was a far left extremist
26/07/2011 04:24:21 PM
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Now I see what you mean.
26/07/2011 04:43:49 PM
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I would argue that his actions were tied to his beliefs on the specific issue of immigration
26/07/2011 06:11:23 PM
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And Glenn Beck shows his usual good taste
26/07/2011 09:11:34 AM
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I'm seriously wondering if attacking the victims here will be the tipping point for US fascists.
26/07/2011 10:30:33 AM
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why does Fox NEws makes liberals so stupid?
26/07/2011 01:04:50 PM
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+1 - the mainstream media loves to jump to conclusions like in Arizona.....
26/07/2011 01:13:12 PM
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Really? (+edit)
26/07/2011 04:53:53 PM
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no the argument started when the media couldn't stop trying to hang him around the neck of the right
26/07/2011 06:46:59 PM
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...
26/07/2011 06:52:45 PM
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if the term doesn't fit in the US then it makes no sense for US media to use the term here
26/07/2011 08:14:40 PM
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This was my point.
26/07/2011 08:21:17 PM
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so are you pulling crap out of thin air now?
26/07/2011 08:36:08 PM
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You need to take a few deep breaths and take a step back.
26/07/2011 11:09:47 PM
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I may be frustrated but I think it is justified
27/07/2011 12:11:09 AM
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I'm sorry if my comment was stupid.
27/07/2011 04:38:47 PM
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I was just taken back a bit because I read it right after complementing you
27/07/2011 06:05:38 PM
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It's the liberals fault they were murdered; I get that that's the American far right argument.
26/07/2011 11:09:25 PM
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BTW, you understand the American right are the only people on the PLANET who dispute he's far right?
26/07/2011 11:21:59 PM
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Joel did you actually read what the Ambassador said?
27/07/2011 12:37:39 AM
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He called it "speculation" that Breivik was part of right-wing extremism.
27/07/2011 01:03:11 AM
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Wow. Let's just make this about us, why don't we?
26/07/2011 04:19:06 PM
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oh please the left is one trying to make about the right
26/07/2011 04:36:39 PM
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I'm referring to all Americans (both sides) who are currently fighting this out.
26/07/2011 04:44:45 PM
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I agree 100% that this issue shouldn't be used in American politics
26/07/2011 06:33:48 PM
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To Hell with them; even the normally indulgent American public will put them in a rubber room soon.
26/07/2011 11:36:13 PM
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You people all need to get a grip
26/07/2011 08:33:01 PM
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+1 - I have no idea why Joel started this thread.....he is obsessed with labels. *NM*
26/07/2011 08:39:29 PM
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No, you do not agree with what Wibble said. Your +1 makes zero sense. *NM*
26/07/2011 11:11:31 PM
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That's what I'm trying to do.
26/07/2011 10:05:29 PM
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You are too close to this just now.
26/07/2011 10:17:22 PM
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Probably,but that it happened in perhaps the safest most liberal place on Earth makes it inescapable
27/07/2011 12:26:45 AM
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Joel you are so full of shit
26/07/2011 10:39:03 PM
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Read Joel's post title again, will you?
26/07/2011 11:21:51 PM
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Oh please, Legolas
26/07/2011 11:44:26 PM
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Quite. And I have every right to point out they're being insensitive jerks. *NM*
26/07/2011 11:53:28 PM
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Bullshit
27/07/2011 04:20:04 AM
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For the record, I've always supported guns for self defense (and hunting, and liberty from tyranny).
27/07/2011 10:52:02 AM
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While I have no real interest in getting involved in the troll fest this post has turned in to
27/07/2011 11:23:46 AM
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I don't see any troll posts. Just discussions.
27/07/2011 02:18:06 PM
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No trolling? And you include the first reply in that?
27/07/2011 02:28:51 PM
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so is the troll the person who makes the point or is the people who refuse to acknowledge it
27/07/2011 02:41:31 PM
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Do you think trz was right to call him an ultra left wing anarchist?
27/07/2011 04:15:50 PM
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I assumed he was referring to me when talked about picking fights with people
27/07/2011 05:53:43 PM
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yes Joel did an outstanding job of proving I wasn't being paranoid *NM*
27/07/2011 02:35:05 PM
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extremely offensive...makes them fearful... gives some people... another excuse to try&silence them
27/07/2011 04:14:37 PM
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One of us is.
27/07/2011 12:22:44 AM
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Anyone saying Brevik has nothing in common with the American "Right" is lying to themselves
26/07/2011 08:49:29 PM
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glad you could come along, someone has to represent the ignorant kool-aid drinkers
26/07/2011 10:29:52 PM
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I don't mind them lying to themselves,but promoting the lie incites violent persecution complexes
26/07/2011 11:40:48 PM
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A suggestion
27/07/2011 03:30:14 AM
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Maybe.
27/07/2011 04:26:44 AM
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But there's a problem in all that
27/07/2011 12:45:24 PM
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In that response, "they" etc. specifically means the talking heads and their defenders.
27/07/2011 02:44:25 PM
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Bad Joel, you let this thread go out of hand
27/07/2011 09:29:19 PM
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I blame nested threads.
27/07/2011 09:39:04 PM
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Personally, I blame your need to have the final post in every conversation
27/07/2011 10:27:30 PM
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