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Oh, but you have time to read Cannoli though Isaac Send a noteboard - 26/07/2012 01:10:50 AM
Maybe I should start talking about how much I hate Egwene, get some proper and diligent reading and get quoted.

Makes me wonder where Joel's at, he always reads my pieces... though admittedly I sometimes wish he didn't...

but, if I get it, you're saying that banning guns won't work well because people with some money and time can just make them anyway? I'm asking, just to make sure I got enough to understand. ;) And if that's correct, why aren't people in other countries making them up and going on shooting sprees?

That is regrettably the short form, the one everyone uses for either for support or to point at. Lacking the specifics your question makes total sense. But the answer is easy... you don't make a shovel when you can buy one, and people in other countries do go on shooting sprees, like that Breivik fellow. One shooting spree versus maybe two a year here, but we outnumber Norway 60:1, hence one incident in thirty years equates to two a year here.... except we haven't had two or three a year, we've had less than one a year, 20 in 30 years, a frequency of 1 per 1.5 years or 1 per 50 year per 10 million people. Sweden, population about 10 million, had one 18 years ago, thus has a higher rate of spree killing than the US, France, population a quarter of ours, has had 3 in the last 20 years, the equivalent of the US having 18 spree killing in 30 years, 90% of ours. The UK had 5 in about 25 years. The Netherlands had one last year. Many countries we have no data on, or unreliable data, but what we can see of US-parallel culture and wealth with gun controls laws is no significant increase or decrease in spree killings. Since the Uiryeong massacre of 1982, 57 dead in S. Korea by a disgruntled cop (kinda hard to keep weapons from them) you've had 20 shooting sprees in the US, and 18 in Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and the United Kingdom... same time, nearly the same population, not sure who has more total there. People play games with the data, both sides, you can cherry pick total deaths or by weapon or etc and have gun laws helping or show the opposite, but the data seems to come up as roughly even. Craziness occurs everywhere and black markets or legal stores make it easier to acquire than home manufacture. Same as LSD or meth, you can make them, easier to buy them, but if you really want one, you will get one.

That is actually interesting to read, thank you.


You are welcome

I don't do the "guns are evil" thing, but I do know they can kill a heck of a lot better than knives or sticks. If I hear "guns don't kill people blahblah" one more time, I'll scream. Yes, you're right, because that's all we're saying. Of course. ARRRGH! (not aiming this at you, clearly, just being annoyed in general)

But I never said that, and not to be picky, but you didn't read my post, which again had to do with auto/semi weapons and ammunition capacity. Guns don't kill people, people kill people and guns are very good ways of aiding in that task. People repeat these phrases till they lose all meaning, I agree, but it's a true statement. It is the insane or criminal mind that commits murder, and their effectiveness will be based on luck, planning, resources, and determination. Remove or limit any leg of that table and you hinder the ability to kill. But we can't do anything about luck, or planning, or determination. But we want to stop killings, so we look at resources, because it's the only one we can touch. Unfortunately some of the means for doing that which seem logical - like banning high capacity mags - really aren't. I oppose virtually gun restrictions but if people want them, they should pick ones that achieve maximum effect with minimum restriction of freedom.

I know you never said that (I did skim), which is why I pointed out that I was not addressing you with that angst. But, I see that you are now agreeing with it:P, and I simply do not have any patience for it. It might be factually true, because yes, a gun (generally) has to have been fired by a human hand, but calling it a "resource" when the level of carnage he was going for would have been harder to achieve without guns is at least a little disingenuous. I don't mind if we disagree on this, but I feel pretty strongly about my hate for that phrase. I don't disagree that you have made a point about the effect of different restrictions, etc.


I wouldn't read too much into my use of the word 'resources', it's not a downplay or sterilizing euphemism, it's one of my 'words' like some people use 'Indeed' or 'In Fact'. If you look up 'resources' on the search engine here you'll see that I account for over 10% of the use of the word with a fair number of the others being also suspiciously close in time to a post by me indicating a quote.

I will try to avoid using that phrase involving what guns don't do but people do do, but we don't actually seem to be in disagreement over it, you've said nearly the identical same thing as I did, that, to be careful not to use the phrase, very deadly objects are very helpful committing murder, but generally do not actually do the deed themselves, and will in many but not all cases if unavailable be substituted with an equal or inferior also deadly object, which may result in fewer deaths, have no effect, or perhaps result in the crime not taking place. I'm not sure what there is to agree or disagree with in that statement, though I do certainly sympathize with pet peeves where overuse of stock phrases and jingo are concerned.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
This message last edited by Isaac on 26/07/2012 at 02:24:26 AM
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Do you have strong feelings/opinions about gun control? - 25/07/2012 05:48:56 AM 1423 Views
Kind of? - 25/07/2012 05:59:39 AM 870 Views
Agreed - 25/07/2012 06:20:44 AM 718 Views
Re: Agreed - 25/07/2012 06:29:16 AM 863 Views
A lot of people are uncomfortable about homsexuality. Let's ban that too. - 25/07/2012 09:26:46 PM 848 Views
Feisty. - 25/07/2012 09:54:31 PM 948 Views
I'm pro-guns, but I don't think I have strong feelings about anything - 25/07/2012 07:36:31 AM 785 Views
I am mostly in agreement with you. - 26/07/2012 02:11:56 AM 662 Views
Fully automatic weapons are already forbidden, aren't they? - 27/07/2012 02:19:57 AM 786 Views
Pretty strong (as someone born, raised and living outside the US) - 25/07/2012 11:23:52 AM 859 Views
I'm okay with guns in very limited circumstances. - 25/07/2012 11:41:13 AM 918 Views
Re: I'm okay with guns in very limited circumstances. - 25/07/2012 01:21:36 PM 796 Views
Inevitable thread, but mostly I feel people enters this debate without knowing enough about guns - 25/07/2012 02:05:12 PM 996 Views
I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry. - 25/07/2012 02:47:05 PM 900 Views
Re: I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry. - 25/07/2012 03:00:07 PM 807 Views
Re: - 25/07/2012 03:30:44 PM 848 Views
Okay, that makes no sense - 25/07/2012 04:32:28 PM 858 Views
Re: Re: - 25/07/2012 05:50:23 PM 885 Views
Re: I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry. - 25/07/2012 10:48:46 PM 887 Views
I understand, but you probably should if time permits - 25/07/2012 03:49:49 PM 1006 Views
It is unlikely to, for a while. - 25/07/2012 10:37:30 PM 887 Views
Oh, but you have time to read Cannoli though - 26/07/2012 01:10:50 AM 820 Views
... his was shorter? - 26/07/2012 02:41:48 PM 741 Views
Yeah but mine had diagrams! - 26/07/2012 03:46:49 PM 818 Views
I do sometimes need pictures. - 26/07/2012 04:55:17 PM 675 Views
Re: I do sometimes need pictures. - 26/07/2012 04:57:57 PM 816 Views
*NM* - 26/07/2012 05:23:11 PM 397 Views
Where exactly did you get those numbers? - 27/07/2012 07:23:31 PM 843 Views
He's right as far as numbers go. - 27/07/2012 08:08:02 PM 875 Views
Wikipedia, the unchallenged source for acurate and complete citation - 27/07/2012 08:19:40 PM 902 Views
Sorry, I totally forgot about this post, hadn't noticed your replies. - 31/07/2012 07:42:43 PM 805 Views
I'm not surprised there were missing incidents - 31/07/2012 08:18:04 PM 797 Views
Re: I'm not surprised there were missing incidents - 31/07/2012 09:14:34 PM 775 Views
Re: I'm not surprised there were missing incidents - 31/07/2012 11:56:05 PM 936 Views
Norway? Scotland? - 25/07/2012 09:31:49 PM 779 Views
You can keep this up - 25/07/2012 09:56:28 PM 772 Views
Hi, Cannoli. - 25/07/2012 10:30:56 PM 786 Views
well it could have at least double posted the edited version - 26/07/2012 10:40:32 PM 739 Views
Most of those numbers come from inner city violence - 26/07/2012 10:40:34 PM 959 Views
Re: Hi, Cannoli. - 09/08/2012 09:07:03 PM 839 Views
The UK tightened gun laws after the Dunblane massacre. - 25/07/2012 10:58:08 PM 730 Views
I have no problem with guns, but I agree that assault weapons shouldn't be legal for ordinary people - 25/07/2012 02:56:38 PM 849 Views
The problem with banning assualt weapons is the defention is mostly cosmetic - 25/07/2012 05:29:35 PM 750 Views
Bullshit - 26/07/2012 01:52:59 PM 894 Views
I call Bullshit on your Bullshit - 26/07/2012 02:59:09 PM 807 Views
Or - 26/07/2012 03:20:12 PM 713 Views
There a lot of us with military training and some were in that theater - 26/07/2012 03:43:52 PM 729 Views
HE was talking about normal people. - 26/07/2012 04:53:16 PM 829 Views
I think we are talking past each other - 26/07/2012 05:55:48 PM 788 Views
Possibly. We do do that. - 26/07/2012 06:52:58 PM 823 Views
In addition to random thoughts's points... - 26/07/2012 03:10:56 PM 751 Views
You're partially right but mostly wrong - 26/07/2012 05:46:27 PM 811 Views
Correct me if I'm wrong.... - 25/07/2012 03:53:07 PM 971 Views
You're wrong - 25/07/2012 04:37:22 PM 739 Views
Yes. - 25/07/2012 05:09:36 PM 741 Views
Yes and I am glad it's not my problem. - 25/07/2012 06:41:56 PM 881 Views
Dude, your burglary argument makes no sense - 25/07/2012 11:09:37 PM 783 Views
It makes lots of sense, actually. - 25/07/2012 11:55:59 PM 783 Views
They don't bring guns here. Huh. *NM* - 26/07/2012 12:59:15 AM 388 Views
they don't typically bring guns here either - 26/07/2012 02:01:14 AM 869 Views
That's how I understand it too but I'm dubious, many criminals are dumber than a bag of hammers - 26/07/2012 02:22:18 AM 723 Views
Ha! - 26/07/2012 12:07:20 PM 653 Views
One of my Marine friends became a Fort Worth cop when he got out - 26/07/2012 03:11:12 PM 840 Views
You get some wild stories - 26/07/2012 06:09:52 PM 853 Views
Like I've always said, you can't un-invent the gun - 25/07/2012 11:05:22 PM 746 Views
Agreed. It's really a lot like health care, in a way. - 26/07/2012 12:07:20 AM 858 Views
Sure, but you can legislate certain excessive firearms. - 26/07/2012 09:41:12 PM 817 Views
assault rifles are banned - 26/07/2012 10:51:28 PM 780 Views
Touchy - 28/07/2012 04:33:46 AM 968 Views

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